House of Karmann Engine ramblings

[greg356a]

Trying to decide what engine to fit into the Karmann Ghia. The plan for the car has always been to build a period look car which I can drive day after day during the summer without fear of standing beside the road waiting on the tow truck or spending hours fiddling to get the tune or maintenance just right. A car which I am not too precious over, if that's possible. Something with great fun acceleration and cruise at 70 mph. Rev to around 6000 and approx 200 ft/ibs of torque to match the 901 5 speed gearbox. I am thinking ECU/ EFI which should give some better fuel efficiencies and control over power band.

Any thoughts/ opinions?

356/912 - A few engines around, rebuild with 1720 might be around 100 bhp on carbs, price could be a limiting factor. Perfect look and originality.

Type 1 - So looking for an engine that looks like a 356, this would be a great starting point, possible to build plenty of power, 160 bhp for around £12k on carbs maybe EFI, question reliability on a built engine? Modern case and internals are better than years ago, but are they good enough? Easy to buy and engine off the shelf, but where's the fun.

Type 4 - Again could be made to look period, maybe use a Porsche 911 cooling shroud, a little more expensive as a 2.3. Obviously a heavier engine which may upset the cars balance.

Flat 6 - sounds great but maybe beyond the budget for this car. 3.0sc on itbs would be awesome. There does not seem to be much available at present as a plug and play option. I would need to do some engineering work to get it to fit, running 1303 stub axles so twisting these off could be fun!

WBX - So interesting to look at vw last developed flat 4 engine which is water cooled. Company in the USA sells a long block 2700 and new ECU plenum injection system giving 160bhp. Water cooling would add a new dimension of heating! No idea if it could be made to look like a 356 engine/ period look? Engineering wise maybe use the Boxster radiators and pipe work down the centre tunnel or over the wheel arches. Engine designed for a van so no idea what it would be like in a KG. Would be a relatively simple solution and move the technology into the mid 80's

No Subaru's welcome. Totally understand why people go down this road.

Electric - various kits around and obviously huge power and acceleration available.

Porsche 718 flat 4 engine and gearbox mid mounted. Wow this would be amazing. My fear would be how much of the electronics would be required from the original car. I understand that a lot of the electronics are all interrelated so may need most of the wiring loom, gauges/ sensors etc. Not aware if you could run on itbs and aftermarket ecu. Also whether it could be run by changing the gearbox crown and pinion over to hang the engine out the back. The engineering work would be very complex and challenging.

I think the Boxster/ 996 engine is too large to fit, too wide to fit between the rear arches.

So what have I missed?

Anyone got a steam driven engine at the back of their shed?

[Nige]

Type iv running EFI and turbo.

[Bruce M]

Type1 is simplest option and plenty of tuning parts available. Making it a daily driver and fully reliable is possible but not trivial. Lots of poor quality parts out there and the prep needs to be at OEM level.

Type4 is a more robust basis but perhaps the gap is less in recent years as T1 specs have evolved. By the time you remove the original cooling system the weigh difference is not that bad. Parts are expensive though, especially things like exhausts. Even a lumpy camshaft is noticeable more expensive than a Type1 version.

With EFI, a very reliable turbo package can be put together but you are doing the engineering yourself as it is not an off-the-shelf package. You do need intercooler &/or water injection to use more than 10psi of boost.

WBX can make decent HP. However parts supply is getting worse although many Type1 parts will fit instead.

[neilbardsley]

Don't put a 616 engine in it. All the parts have Porsche tax and on them. Someone correct me, but doesn't the type 4 have an oil filter before the bearing rather than after like a type 1?

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[KS]

Don't put a 616 engine in it. All the parts have Porsche tax and on them. Someone correct me, but doesn't the type 4 have an oil filter before the bearing rather than after like a type 1?

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Type 1 VW doesn't have an oil filter...

[neilbardsley]

Wow so no filter on the type 1, a filter in the wrong place on a 616 engine and a proper filter on a type 4

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[greg356a]

No clear winner yet?

Type 1 with new case and internals using EFI would seem the easiest route but where's the fun in easy.

Twin plug type 1 ever been done in recent years?

[Bruce M]

Not sure, but there has been twin plug type4 head. All custom or very high cost billet heads.

[hot66]

What’s the style the car will end up ? From the other thread it looks like a period style hot rod ? If so I think I’d go with a 356 or 912 motor.

If it’s performance then a big build type 4 with Porsche style fan etc would work well too

[KS]

With the range of components available from the likes of CB Performance (Type 1) or AA Performance (Type 4) it's never been easier to build a big, torquey reliable air-cooled VW motor. Ask 100 people the question what should you do on an internet forum and you'll get 100 different suggestions, of which maybe half a dozen will be from people who've actually built an engine at some point in their lives...

The last Type 1 motor I built was a 2332 on 48IDAs producing around 205bhp - drove it out to Belgium and back without problem. Just need to keep it cool. But a big Type 1 motor can be a bitch to install in a stock body. A 2.3-litre Type 4 would be my choice for your needs - 78 x 96 means no internal clearancing problems and the heads will stay sealed, too. With 5.1-inch rods (giving a rod ratio of around 1.65), it's a torquey combination which isn't too wide to give problems in the Ghia's engine bay. Parts from AA Performance (crank, rods, P&Cs and heads) are great value and good quality.

But like I say, ask 100 people and you'll get 100 answers.

PS - if you want some bedtime reading on engine combinations and tuning theory, grab a copy of this. Although it is aimed primarily at Type 1 motors, there's a lot of relevant info on rod ratios, CRs, cam choice, etc etc...

[Nige]

I've read that book back to back countless times

[greg356a]

compulsive reading!

Keith, agree 100 people with 100 different comments. I feel the stronger type 4 would be the better option for the back of the KG. I assume by cooling you meant the air side rather than oil.

Any comments on horizontal cooling for a type 4? this one is from tangerine racing in the USA.

87

It would add a real retro rod look and interest, they are always described as great for cooling

[Bootsy]

compulsive reading!

Keith, agree 100 people with 100 different comments. I feel the stronger type 4 would be the better option for the back of the KG. I assume by cooling you meant the air side rather than oil.

Any comments on horizontal cooling for a type 4? this one is from tangerine racing in the USA.

87

It would add a real retro rod look and interest, they are always described as great for cooling

My old Speedster rep used to run a 2 litre Type 4 with horizontal cooling



Looked nice - used to run quite cool but had an external cooler with fan fitted all be it with lack of engine bay tinware!

[KS]

Not had any personal experience with the horizontal set-up from Tangerine - my one observation is about the efficiency of that fan. I'll look into that as I could be interested for the revised motor I'm planning for the 914.
I like Bootsy's set-up as it uses the Porsche fan and, presumably, alternator.

But, yes, I think a strong Type 4, with an added external oil cooler, would be my choice.

[911hillclimber]

Here is the flat fan on my race car, a big 3.2 flat6.
Just about keeps this engine cool, but never would in traffic.