It started with a pop

For you flat four Porsche 912 fanatics

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AndrewSlater
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Re: It started with a pop

Post by AndrewSlater »

Apologies my actions are ahead of the thread - always more fun to spanner things than document them.

With the first head off I could check the piston bore and yes they are 86mm - so big bore.
The cylinders are cast iron, and given that I was given a NPR big bore kit box with the parts with the car, I'm pretty confident that is what is fitted.

Now there seemed to be quite a bit of oil in the bores, and the head was a bit oily black, which seemed a bit extreme for <1000 miles of motoring.

Image

My first thought was that the head valves weren't properly sealed so I tested them with brake cleaner.

I did a cylinder at a time, here is No 3 holding brake cleaner indefinitely, as did No 4.

Image

Both intakes and outlets are fitted with valve seals and they all looked fresh and good so still no smoking gun.

Time to keep digging.

I dropped the valves out of the head and all the valves are ATE.
The inlet valves for 3 and 4 were both oily black - urgh!!
Image

Keep digging.

I next removed a cylinder to check the state and orientation of the rings and soon realised the ring gaps weren't in the most ideal places.

At this point I took the decision to drop the other cylinder head so I could pull all the cylinders.

The cylinder head of 1/2 looked similar although on this side there was no blackening on the inlet side of the inlet valves, so this side was better.

Image
It's never good to see all your piston ring gaps have aligned! - this is cylinder 1

Here's a diagram showing how all four were.

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You can see why cylinder 3 and 4 were particularly bad - cylinder 3 couldn't really have much worse orientation.

So annoyingly I think someone did a good job of rebuilding the heads, fitted a NOS NPR big bore kit, but don't seem to have set the piston ring alignment correctly.

Time to take stock with regard to the piston / cylinders.
Last edited by AndrewSlater on Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1966 Porsche 912 Slate Grey, red interior - first owner owned for 41 years
1974 Porsche 911 2.7 (The Manhattan project) viewtopic.php?f=28&t=51455
1973 VW 914 1.7 Olympic Blue - ( gone to a good home )
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AndrewSlater
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Re: It started with a pop

Post by AndrewSlater »

So whilst mulling over what to do - best plan when you've dug a hole up to your neck - keep digging.

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I have to say these 912 engines are so much more manageable on an engine stand compared to the 911 ones.
1966 Porsche 912 Slate Grey, red interior - first owner owned for 41 years
1974 Porsche 911 2.7 (The Manhattan project) viewtopic.php?f=28&t=51455
1973 VW 914 1.7 Olympic Blue - ( gone to a good home )
neilbardsley
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Re: It started with a pop

Post by neilbardsley »

Thank for that. Can you explain the ideal orientation? I think I understand why the compression rings gaps are at right angles but why is the oil gap always pointing towards the fly wheel.

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SeanP
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Re: It started with a pop

Post by SeanP »

Regarding the piston ring orientation. Would the rings not walk around the cylinders with running? They may have been set correctly in the build, but walked in use. Piston rings are not pegged in place so would rotate around the cylinders with use.

Just a thought.

Regards

Sean
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Re: It started with a pop

Post by SeanP »

neilbardsley wrote:Thank for that. Can you explain the ideal orientation? I think I understand why the compression rings gaps are at right angles but why is the oil gap always pointing towards the fly wheel.

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The idea is to have the ring gaps as far apart as possible so that any leakage of compression has to travel as far as possible to prevent loss. The same with the oil scraper ring to prevent oil getting into the combustion chamber, (I normally try to put the oil scraper ring joints facing the top of the barrel on a flat engine to allow gravity to help).

But as the piston rings are not pegged in the pistons to prevent rotation, the rings are turned ever so slightly by the honing marks on the barrel until run in at which time the barrels and piston rings have bedded in.
1966 912
1969 912/6 hotish rod in build
1974 914 Dead
LI 125 Lambretta (Yeah right it’s a 125)
Mini Cooper s
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Re: It started with a pop

Post by AndrewSlater »

My understanding is as per Sean's explanation.

The rings may move a little when bedding in but shouldn't move too much.
If the rings move randomly and ended up wherever, then the piston manufacturers (and Porsche) wouldn't specify how they are to be fitted because it would make no difference.
If all the ring gaps line up you will get a lot more oil migration which isn't what you want.

My understanding with the oil control ring is that it has the largest gap and as such the weight distribution of the ring would put the gap at the top ( which is what I think you want to control oil migration ). There are plenty of contradictory posts on this subject so difficult to know for sure.

My cylinders look in as new condition and still have quite clear honing marks in them - so I'm guessing no attention was paid to the ring orientation and as such the rings haven't bedded correctly due to the excessively oiled bores in the sub 1K miles.

My gut feeling is that I could just go for a new set of rings, put everything back correctly and everything would be good.
A new set of rings approximately £100 but then a new set of pistons and cylinders start at £500 and the new Hypereutectic pistons are surely much better than the '70s NPR standard cast pistons.

My current thought is to pay more and go for new pistons with Biral cylinders to get better heat dissipation ( and potentially a little more performance ).

Of course costs are already mounting up so need to decide where best to spend my money.

Did I mention removing the flywheel gland nut - now that was fun and not for the faint hearted ;)

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1966 Porsche 912 Slate Grey, red interior - first owner owned for 41 years
1974 Porsche 911 2.7 (The Manhattan project) viewtopic.php?f=28&t=51455
1973 VW 914 1.7 Olympic Blue - ( gone to a good home )
neilbardsley
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Re: It started with a pop

Post by neilbardsley »

There is a vw one people use but I bgt on of these for £30 off eBay. Lots of torque

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353073950723

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Re: It started with a pop

Post by AndrewSlater »

Hi Neil thanks for the suggestion.

Did you use that on a gland nut?

I had looked at them and dismissed it on the following grounds.

None of the kits seem to come with a 36mm socket.
They all seem to be 1" drive so would need an adapter to fit my 36mm socket ( or find a 1" drive socket )
The drive also seems to be via a square 1", so would need a specialist adapter if I wanted to drive it with a torque wrench.
I could use the handle provided instead, but would need to somehow monitor the torque at the 'high torque' end.
Finally I wanted to torque the gland nut whilst on my engine stand with the case braced to the floor, and there is no way one of these would fit in the space between the engine and the stand.

This is where the VW torque meister wins as it moves the drive to the edge of the flywheel, and the tool itself takes up very little height.

I will probably try to refit the way I took it off and use a high torque meter inline.
If not then the VW torque meister is probably the way to go - the problem is nobody in the UK seems to have any stock for another 6 weeks or so.

Anyone got a VW torque meister or equivalent I could borrow?
1966 Porsche 912 Slate Grey, red interior - first owner owned for 41 years
1974 Porsche 911 2.7 (The Manhattan project) viewtopic.php?f=28&t=51455
1973 VW 914 1.7 Olympic Blue - ( gone to a good home )
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Re: It started with a pop

Post by AndrewSlater »

You forget that one of the largest efforts in an engine rebuild is cleaning all the parts.
I'm guessing whoever rebuilt the engine last didn't clean it very well as I can't believe it could get that dirty in less than a thousand miles.

Having cleaned both case halves twice, with copious amounts of gunk, carburettor cleaner, brake cleaner and mainly elbow grease, I also gave the cases a thorough jet wash especially through all the oil galleries.

Image

When it comes to reassembly I expect to clean these parts a final time - fun fun fun.

The mantra really is clean, clean, clean again and when you have everything clean, clean it again for luck. :)
1966 Porsche 912 Slate Grey, red interior - first owner owned for 41 years
1974 Porsche 911 2.7 (The Manhattan project) viewtopic.php?f=28&t=51455
1973 VW 914 1.7 Olympic Blue - ( gone to a good home )
Ollie
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Re: It started with a pop

Post by Ollie »

Looks like you're all the way in to a good 'freshen up'!

Might be worth sticking a full flow oil filter kit on there while its apart... I can sell you one :wink:
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neilbardsley
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Re: It started with a pop

Post by neilbardsley »

I have one but I've only used it on wheels. I'm let me check that I have. I'm not sure I have the tool to hold the fly wheel in place.

Sorry I checked and I don't have all the pieces. I stopped using it when I bgt another multiplier

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Re: It started with a pop

Post by AndrewSlater »

Ollie wrote:Looks like you're all the way in to a good 'freshen up'!

Might be worth sticking a full flow oil filter kit on there while its apart... I can sell you one :wink:
Hi Oliie,

yes as I've been lovingly cleaning all my parts I was starting to wonder whether I should invest in a full flow filter system.

The car previously has one, but I don't think it was a great implementation.
An external oil cooler had been fitted with an external filter. I'm not sure that was the best place to take off the oil feed and I would definately want to fit the filter low preferably below the oil sump level.
Image

Having done some research I think the Precision Matters kit would be the way to go with the oil pump plate with integral filter console.

Which kit are you selling Ollie ? - your picture only shows the console and pipes - what's at the other end?

Anyone got a spare Precision Matters kit or experience of one?
1966 Porsche 912 Slate Grey, red interior - first owner owned for 41 years
1974 Porsche 911 2.7 (The Manhattan project) viewtopic.php?f=28&t=51455
1973 VW 914 1.7 Olympic Blue - ( gone to a good home )
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Re: It started with a pop

Post by AndrewSlater »

Hi Neil,

Thanks for the photos.

Yes the first photo is the Torque Meister kit I was talking about.
I think you have all the parts required to undo a gland nut. I believe you just need the arm and the correct gear for the flywheel. I think the kits have gears for 6V flywheels and 12V ones - the 912 clearly has the latter flywheel.

The quadrant gear is supplied to fit to a hub when undoing the rear hub nut.
1966 Porsche 912 Slate Grey, red interior - first owner owned for 41 years
1974 Porsche 911 2.7 (The Manhattan project) viewtopic.php?f=28&t=51455
1973 VW 914 1.7 Olympic Blue - ( gone to a good home )
robs912
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Re: It started with a pop

Post by robs912 »

Hi Andrew.
I fitted the precision matters one on my engine when I was rebuilding it. Its really nice quality but quite pricey.
You do have to remove a small amount of material from the 3rd piece where the oil pump gears fit. Quite easy to do and if you keep your old pump cover you can change back to stock if you want in the future as far as I understand.
hope this helps
cheers
rob
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Re: It started with a pop

Post by Ollie »

Hi Andrew,

I've put together a kit that uses the more traditional oil filter routing from 'back in the day'. It requires tapping the case for an outlet on the 3rd piece and the return is just behind the distributor. The case/3rd piece also needs a blanking plug to divert the oil to the filter.

I thought long and hard before going down this route and my reasoning was as follows;

* The oil bypass system remains operational, this means that the filter does not get full pressure on startup. This can be considerable pressure on a cold day in the UK. Not so much in the sunny climates of California!

* It is a reversible modification, the areas that are tapped are broadly out of sight and can be blanked off should you wish to remove the setup.

* It is significantly cheaper than the alternatives.

This illustration nicked from another forum shows the outlet and return points.

There is a school of thought that says the oil should be filtered immediately from startup rather than warmup which is what this system. Some filters have integrated pressure relief systems anyway which would leave you no better off. I see this as a small tradeoff against price and simplicity.

Kind regards.

Ollie
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