Three Five Six - Ideas in Motion

[Richardab1967]

I don't think there is anything wrong with your engine choice or size. But I would say that as mine is a type1 1776 too!

Personally I don't need a super fast car. The 1776 has for years been a good reliable better than stock vw engine, plenty fast enough to push a small car along. At 70-80hp its comparable with what the original 356 would have had. I think I would be too scared to drive anything much more powerful in a shortened plastic car with 70yr old suspension design.

Can't really help with advice on who to get to build it for you, as I built mine myself, but there are well know respected engine builders out there, John Maher, Stateside, Dan Simpson, Ian Clark at Wolfburg Performance, Alan Woodford at GAC, Laurie Pettit, but I didn't know that Limebug even built engines, read into that what you want!

With regards heads, I would choose a builder and discuss stuff like heads, cam and carb choice with them.

Engine maps for IVA?? Its not fuel injected?. Obviously you would want it timed and jetted correctly. But as you are starting with a new case rather than a pre 1975 (visual inspection only) rebuilt engine there is more stringent emissions standards I think, although I'm not sure what level.

[Robneal]

Yeah be careful about the engine date, because you will need to meet different emmisions if you are running a new block. if you are running a std beetle set of tinware then you could opt for a mexi bug fuel injection system with a modern ecu and that way you should be able to get a map that will pass IVA, but might ne better to run a 1200 original engine to go through IVA and then swap it after...

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[porschewagen]

Adam - great to see another coupe coming together. I’ve been building my 356a rep for nearly 2 years. Progress is VERY slow - I’m a complete amateur and have so far been working on it alone, but I’m having the same thoughts and considerations as you re. IVA.

I have a simple question I’d value opinion on as I cannot find anything explicit in the IVA regulations, if you (or anyone) can help:

Does IVA demand separate tell tales for left indicator and right? Or can I use just one tell tale light?

Reason I ask is because I am using original 356a gauges and have a limited number of warning lights (trying to keep extra holes in the dash to a minimum).

Thanks
Ian

[greg356a]

Just read through your thread, really interesting read and take on your design. 550 lights work for me!
Good luck on IVA look forward to this build progressing

[Richardab1967]

Does IVA demand separate tell tales for left indicator and right? Or can I use just one tell tale light?

I’m pretty certain they dont require left and right. I wasnt planning to.
They do however need a seperate tell tale for the hazard operation

[Robneal]

Does IVA demand separate tell tales for left indicator and right? Or can I use just one tell tale light?

I’m pretty certain they dont require left and right. I wasnt planning to.
They do however need a seperate tell tale for the hazard operation

IVA demands that if you dont have seperate left and right indicator lights then you need to have seperate hazard warning tell tale, but if you do have seperate indicator lights then these must flash together when the hazard warning lights are switched on.

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[mdmax72]

Adam - great to see another coupe coming together. I’ve been building my 356a rep for nearly 2 years. Progress is VERY slow - I’m a complete amateur and have so far been working on it alone, but I’m having the same thoughts and considerations as you re. IVA.

I have a simple question I’d value opinion on as I cannot find anything explicit in the IVA regulations, if you (or anyone) can help:

Does IVA demand separate tell tales for left indicator and right? Or can I use just one tell tale light?

Reason I ask is because I am using original 356a gauges and have a limited number of warning lights (trying to keep extra holes in the dash to a minimum).

Thanks
Ian

Ian

If your using the original clocks (as l did) and have a single Green warning light for right and left you will be fine. All you need is to use a separate red hazard warning light/switch.

[Richardab1967]

Whilst we are on tell tales (hope you don’t mind Adam hijacking your thread).

I am not sure i understand the manual when it talks about using icons on or next to tell tales. It specifically says with regard to main beam tell tale that it can be either blue and no mention of icon, or any colour with an icon or any colour with a label.

Note 1: The “Main Beam” tell tale can either blue in colour, or a tell tale (any colour - preferably blue) with the symbol (see section 33) or a tell tale any colour and the words Main Beam or Main

But i havent found similar description for other tell tales for example, indicators, rear fog, brake fluid level other than chap 33 which lists preferred colours and symbols.

Does that mean if i use the colours in chap 33 i don’t need a symbol/label, but if not, i do?

[porschewagen]

Thanks. Great to get some clear feedback on this. Think I’ve got a clear plan:

There are no restrictions in the IVA manual on the colour of the tell tales so the middle clock will be used for left and right (and both will flash together for the Hazards). On the combi gauge I’ll have the oil light, alternator light and main beam (I have both an A and a C gauge and the C has the extra tell tale). I have mounted the rear fog switch with amber tell tale and the brake test/pressure failure tell tale on the panel where the radio would otherwise go. They’re just within the bounds of the exemption zone around the circumference of the steering wheel.

My main beam/ flasher is on a momentary/latching button to the right of the steering wheel. Screenwash button is below that (where ignition switch would normally go). I then have the switch for the heated front windscreen discretely hidden under the dash. It’s on a 10 minute timed relay.

I have a genuine ‘57 steering column with a period correct (give or take a couple of years) steering lock/ignition on the column. Finally I have used a Beetle semaphore stalk on the column for the indicators.

That’s it. I’m hoping this will get me through the IVA. My idea is to keep everything as simple as I can!

[AccidentalGenius]

Richard / Rob thanks for your thoughts and comments on engines.

I had originally planned to use my original crankcase but spotted a deal on new case that didn't need machining and decided to buy it. I think maybe I will now get my original engine rebuilt (with a little update / upgrade) and use that for the IVA so I have the original engine in it, and then have all my shiny new partbsbuilt up in to my 1776 engine to go in later.

So with that in mind I would be looking at taking my 1300 up to a 1600 with a simple single carb layout, using my original crank assembly and fly wheel maybe? This should all be good quality stuff I guess. It seems sensible to put a new cam in there while its open I guess but other than that no real mods.

I could then use this in my next project which I am dreaming up which is also requires an air-cooled engine.

And as you suggest, using the original engine (by that I really am focusing on the crank case) then the IVA test should be as simple as it can be in that area.

[AccidentalGenius]

Adam - great to see another coupe coming together. I’ve been building my 356a rep for nearly 2 years. Progress is VERY slow - I’m a complete amateur and have so far been working on it alone, but I’m having the same thoughts and considerations as you re. IVA.

I have a simple question I’d value opinion on as I cannot find anything explicit in the IVA regulations, if you (or anyone) can help:

Does IVA demand separate tell tales for left indicator and right? Or can I use just one tell tale light?

Reason I ask is because I am using original 356a gauges and have a limited number of warning lights (trying to keep extra holes in the dash to a minimum).

Thanks
Ian

Hi Ian, I can confirm my understanding is much the same as that already given. You can have a single tell-tale for left/right indicator but then you will need a different tell-tale for Hazards. Alternatively you can have separate left and right tell-tales and for your hazards you can flash both together.

Either way you need 2 tell-tales, its up to you as to what will work best for your layout.

I am opting for separate left and right tell-tales and a separate tell-tale for hazards. This layout works for me as I am using new dials that do not have any lights in them and therefore all tell-tales need to be elsewhere - I am also trying to align the switch that performs the function to the tell-tale so a switch for 'hazards' will be directly above the tell-tale for the same thing.

[AccidentalGenius]

Whilst we are on tell tales (hope you don’t mind Adam hijacking your thread).

I am not sure i understand the manual when it talks about using icons on or next to tell tales. It specifically says with regard to main beam tell tale that it can be either blue and no mention of icon, or any colour with an icon or any colour with a label.

Note 1: The “Main Beam” tell tale can either blue in colour, or a tell tale (any colour - preferably blue) with the symbol (see section 33) or a tell tale any colour and the words Main Beam or Main

But i havent found similar description for other tell tales for example, indicators, rear fog, brake fluid level other than chap 33 which lists preferred colours and symbols.

Does that mean if i use the colours in chap 33 i don’t need a symbol/label, but if not, i do?

Hi Richard,

My understanding on this, that I may have read, dreamed or just made-up (its hard to tell after spending so many hours reading and thinking about this exact thing) is that the minimum requirement for any tell-tale (and switch) is that its function must be obvious to the driver. I think this maybe why there is little mention of an actual requirement for tell-tales.

You can buy tell-tale sticker sets that have the usual/obvious icons and words required to label each tell-tale/switch. I have a couple of sets of these and I am planning to use them above or below each switch to identify the function of the switch, and directly on each tell-tale. Additionally, and based specifically on my layout (using the original radio area for all switches and tell-tales) I am in almost all cases aligning the switch directly above its corresponding tell-tale. Where the tell-tale is for something that doesn't come from a dashboard switch (ie turn signals) these will sit as a second row of tell-tales.

Therefore my dash layout (within the original radio space in the centre of the dash) would be;

2 X 52mm dials for Fuel and Oil

Row of 6 switches (with switch guards to make them IVA compliant)
- Lights off/on
- Wiper off/on/on
- Screen Wash off/momentary
- Hazard off/on
- Screen De-mist off/on
- Rear Fog off/on

Row of 6 tell-tales directly related to the above switches
- Lights tell-tale
- Wiper tell-tale
- Screen Wash tell-tale
- Hazard tell-tale
- Screen tell-tale
- Rear Fog tell-tale

Row of 4 tell-tales related to functions from a column-mounted stalk for turn signals and main beam (plus brake warning).
- Left Indicator tell-tale
- Main Beam tell-tale
- Brake Test/Warning tell-tale
- Right Indicator tell-tale

I plan to use the curved shape of the bottom of the original radio opening such that the bottom 4 tell-tales sit directly below the 4 middle 4 from the row above to try and give a look that it might have originally been this way.

As I mentioned previously the intent is to cut as few holes as possible in to the dash.

Does anyone believe I have missed any tell-tales or equally added anything unnecessary?

[porschewagen]

Adam, sorry your initial build thread has deteriorated into a discussion about tell tales , but I think this is good information to share and it’s what forums are all about!

I think you are spot on with your switches. Regarding the tell tales you list, they’re not all required but they will add consistency to the look and layout.

You only actually need the following tell tales-

Indicators, hazards, main beam, rear fog, brake pressure warning/test. Additionally the dash backlight(s) must come on with the head/side lights. Wipers and screenwash don’t need tell tales.

Regarding labels & colours - I’m following the “must be clear to the driver” line of thought, that said I will be sticking some temporary labels above each switch when IVA day finally comes!

[porschewagen]

Also meant to mention about the side repeaters. I was bothered about these too but found some small discrete LED units each about the size of a 20p coin. They are mounted on the side of the front wings just a couple of inches in front of the doors. They are hardly noticeable when not in use and despite my original intention, I’ll probably keep them on after IVA for extra safety. I’ve used LED bulbs in my front and rear beehives and they are much brighter than standard bulbs.

[AccidentalGenius]

First of all, please don't worry about the content of the blog - I am more than happy to have the blog discuss tell-tales, or anything else related to the design/ build/ testing of the car as I am sure it is helpful to us now and to others in months (years) to come.

Thank you for confirming the minimum requirements for tell-tales. I completely agree that some of mine are OTT (wipers/washer etc.) but as you say I am only actually doing those for a nice uniformed appearance. I don't know how long I will drive the car in the IVA guise before making any changes so i plan to make my IVAv version as nice as possible (within reason).

As for side repeaters. Don't forget there is a minimum height for them. This is made even move difficult for me as I have air suspension which of course means the height can change... I am assuming to drive (and therefore test) the car at full height but I do wonder if going this route is going to cause any extra problems come IVA?!

We have spoken about the IVA quite a bit on here, does anyone have a target month for it? Also is there any concern about changes to the standard in the short to medium term???