Feckin Starter Motor

Need some help with a technical problem - ask away and let's see if we can all help.

Moderators: hot66, impmad2000, Nige

911hillclimber
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 18858
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:26 pm
Location: West Midlands

Re: Feckin Starter Motor

Post by 911hillclimber »

I have a UK high torque light weight starter on my 3.2 in my 73T.
Been there 3 years, maybe more.
Bolted straight on and has never failed to work.

The car has the usual engine/body earth, not new, 10 years old but clean and corrosion free.

Cannot recall the make now, but the same as Andy Lightweight has used, maybe he can help as his recall is far better than mine.

Further, I have another make, now ceased production on my Porsche hill climb engine, 3.2/915, and that has worked perfectly for 6 years. It is a very different design to the usual ones (which Sladey's is) with a planet gear system, small in diameter. I hope the picture here might help.

When I bought the motor for my road 911T I was quizzed to the teeth on the pinion and the flywheel type. Seems at the time there was a bit of confusion in the industry of a 10 or 9 tooth, 3.2/915 or 3.2/G50. iirc, the 10 tooth is for the G50.

I have never had one of these high torque starters fail of either design.
Both have correct sized holes in their mounting flanges, no slots and simply bolt on just as the factory item does, thus the alignment of the starter gear is assured to the ring gear. Each design has a shoulder that is machined to sit in the counter bore in the box's bell housing, so even if slotted the starter is perfectly aligned for meshing. This feature is about 4mm deep.

I guess (note) that if the motor here in question has a slotted mount, then the location feature is not used. Why you need to change this alignment is a question, but I guess again it is to allow the same design to fit 915 and G50 bell housings? This may be back spacing the new started back 4mm (maybe 5mm) thus reducing the engagement of the pinion?

Good luck sorting it out, very frustrating and a really awkward job to do.

Image
73T 911 Coupe, road/hillclimber 3.2L
Lola t 492 / 3.2 hillclimb racer
Boxster 987 Gen II 2.9
fetuhoe
DDK rules my life!
Posts: 1044
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:06 pm
Location: Midlands

Re: Feckin Starter Motor

Post by fetuhoe »

Graham,

The Magneton based axial starters are excellent and we have used them for more than 10 years and have never seen a failure. They were made for VAG in the Czech Republic.

Unhappily the manufacturer of these units withdrew them from production at the start of the year as the new cars which used them were withdrawn from production and we managed to buy the last few units that were available.

We were given the opportunity for a 'one-time' buy but the MOQ was 1000 Units.

We are still looking to find an alternative axial unit.
911hillclimber
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 18858
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:26 pm
Location: West Midlands

Re: Feckin Starter Motor

Post by 911hillclimber »

Interesting Chris, it is better than the one on my road 911 by far and lighter too.
It is branded Brise.
Just noticed Andy has named his starter, my road 3.2 has the same one, been perfect.
73T 911 Coupe, road/hillclimber 3.2L
Lola t 492 / 3.2 hillclimb racer
Boxster 987 Gen II 2.9
gridgway
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 5715
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:59 pm

Re: Feckin Starter Motor

Post by gridgway »

We use the "Wosp" hi torque starters on the single seaters to start 2.0l pintos. They are in a harsh environment, but are pretty patchy. I wouldn't use them in a road car.

Graham
fetuhoe
DDK rules my life!
Posts: 1044
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:06 pm
Location: Midlands

Re: Feckin Starter Motor

Post by fetuhoe »

The 'Brise' units of this style were based on Magneton core units but quite expensive compared to our source.
sladey
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 8632
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: Feckin Starter Motor

Post by sladey »

RESULT!!!!!

I ducked out of a business dinner tonight so I could have a crack at it. I also tried loosening the top nut holding the starter motor on without dropping the gearbox. I’ve done this so many times now I was able to do it without too much trouble - I reckon I could change it now without all the gearbox dropping drama.

Anyway I loosened both nuts, moved the starter out - I.e. further away from the ring gear, tightened it all up and tried it. Worked first time. And second, and third and fourth and so on.

Brilliant.
The simple things you see are all complicated
I look pretty young but I'm just backdated yeah
911hillclimber
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 18858
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:26 pm
Location: West Midlands

Re: Feckin Starter Motor

Post by 911hillclimber »

Great!
Do you have a pic of the starter?
73T 911 Coupe, road/hillclimber 3.2L
Lola t 492 / 3.2 hillclimb racer
Boxster 987 Gen II 2.9
User avatar
bjmullan
Me and DDK sitting in a tree! KISSING
Posts: 2978
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:15 pm

Re: Feckin Starter Motor

Post by bjmullan »

:cheers: fab news Mark.
Brendan
1969 911T
2007 2.7 Boxster

Pray, hope and don't worry - Padre Pio
jtparr
DDK 1st, 2nd and 3rd for me!
Posts: 2230
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 10:54 pm
Location: london/surrey

Re: Feckin Starter Motor

Post by jtparr »

Result...good to hear it.... :cheers:
1974 2.7 Carrera
(full restoration. now as an RS Touring)
1963 3.8 E Type
( 11 years in the making…………………….)
1952. XK120…the next one ……….……..)
sladey
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 8632
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: Feckin Starter Motor

Post by sladey »

Thanks everyone whose commented

No pics of it but it’s this one
http://www.design911.co.uk/fu/prod13030 ... 160410101/
The simple things you see are all complicated
I look pretty young but I'm just backdated yeah
Gary71
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 10228
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 1:27 pm
Location: Cheshire
Contact:

Feckin Starter Motor

Post by Gary71 »

Great result
Still weird having an ‘adjustable’ starter position, seems wrong. It should just fit or 9/10 times you are going to get it in the wrong place.
sladey
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 8632
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: Feckin Starter Motor

Post by sladey »

Yeah - totally agree with that Gary - especially as when you fit it it is impossible to see or feel what position it should be in as the cogs aren't meshed until it is running.

However since then it's worked flawlessly
The simple things you see are all complicated
I look pretty young but I'm just backdated yeah
911hillclimber
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 18858
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:26 pm
Location: West Midlands

Re: Feckin Starter Motor

Post by 911hillclimber »

It has the mounting 'boss' to locate into the bell housing, maybe that is eccentric to the pinion shaft, twist it and the mesh is 'adjustable', hence the slotted mounting holes to allow a degree of twist/adjustment.
However, it works!
73T 911 Coupe, road/hillclimber 3.2L
Lola t 492 / 3.2 hillclimb racer
Boxster 987 Gen II 2.9
fetuhoe
DDK rules my life!
Posts: 1044
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:06 pm
Location: Midlands

Re: Feckin Starter Motor

Post by fetuhoe »

I don't understand how you can move the starter axially without a spacer as when you tighten it up it just returns to the position determined by the mounting flange.

There shouldn't be any significant radial adjustment as there is a spigot on the mounting flange to align the starter in the correct position and it isn't eccentric as the centre distance between the two sets of teeth is a 'ruling' dimension.

The throw on the pinion should be around 10-12mm when the solenoid is energised and if it missed completely it must have been a long way out of position.

It would be interesting to know what caused the problem
sladey
Nurse, I think I need some assistance
Posts: 8632
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:08 pm
Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: Feckin Starter Motor

Post by sladey »

Hi Chris

I'm no engineer so not entirely sure on the meaning of axially. The movement allowed by the slots lets the whole unit move from side to side, not in and out - so you can potentially tighten it up in a number of different positions, but the throw-out will always travel the same distance.

I think it was actually too close before and the thing being thrown out was hitting the edge of the ring gear. As I moved it to the side a bit it was managing to avoid hitting it every time; as I moved it to the side all the way it seems to be engaging with it every time.
The simple things you see are all complicated
I look pretty young but I'm just backdated yeah
Post Reply