DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker

This little rant/commentary purely stems from a conversation I had with a fellow porsche/classic car nut today and may raise the hackles of some.. but I kindof hope not.

We came to the conclusion that if any of the cars being rebuildt today were to rally or be driven hard, then we dont think they would survive the forty odd years many original cars have. The reason is this, considering pretty much all the vintage reproduction parts are made in strange small factories in cheaper parts of the world,exactly what guarentee do we have that the parts are as strong or well-made as back then?

In the 60/70's they wanted stuff to last.. using the best metallury and designs available to ensure this, today we build stuff to a pricepoint..and limited lifespan to ensure we come back for another dishwasher in 5 years. So exactly what are we getting now?

Why should we believe that these newly made parts are as good or better than what they made back.. and remember alot of these cars are still driving strongly and look the part. Chrome trim and chromed bits,leather bits, thermostat housings..etc..

We think all these bits buildt into a car makes it restored..orginal.. but it just ensures the car is a copy.. like a fake Louis Vuitton bag, or cheesey Rolex from the thai backstreets.

I think we all agree original parts and patination (new word for old scratches) are what make a car awesome and cool, and this is what the German market love.. not the Pebble-Beach over restored car guilded with chinzy fake porsche bits made anywhere but Zuff.. and lets face it, the majority of parts ARE made by third party people and marked up accordingly pricewise so people can crack one off to the Porsche labelled parts packaging.

What made me think of this was the Pale blue RS for sale.. they waffle on about rare paint and lack of graphics.. only to show a car being "back to metal" restored.. what a crock, thats not the original paint or history of many years driving. Also the McQueen car.. bought at auction and then torn down, repainted, repro LeMans parking sticker made and seats redone... I mean, WTF? you destroy the original seats that Steves sweaty arse-crack sat in! thats the value of the car right there! now its JUST another car.. amongst the sea of newly made parts cars..

ho hum.. off to the pub.. Then plan my HotRod build with the Agincourt salut for all the bull spewed about how everything must be original...cause it aint!

I appreciate your sentiment, but what do you do when a car is worn out? I'm not talking about preserving some carcinogenic arse sweat, but actual nuts and bolts of a machine? You either have to try to restore what's there, or if it's beyond saving then you have to replace with new. I know pattern parts aren't up to the same standards of the original, but if the original is NLA or four times the price then what do you do? Much of what Porsche knocks out is manufactured elsewhere now anyway.

My own car is/was a ratty old SC. When I bought it, pricewise, it was the bottom of the pile. The least loved of the aircooled cars. Given its drivable-but-thoroughly-worn-out condition I would have made money by buying the car and breaking it for spares. I am, however, rebuilding it to my own spec. Very much un-original. Displacement increase using P&Cs never offered by Porsche, removing weight where I can, getting rid of the heavy original seats, etc. I'm quite sure that the market would see this as a negative if I were to sell (not that I'm ever planning to), but so what?

I'm not rebuilding my car to impress car bores, or anyone other than myself. If that means my Dansk fuel tank, with badly applied 3M Schutz (I've never been much of a painter) in black rather than the original grey offends someone it'll actually make me smile. So will the extra £400 in my back pocket that I saved by not buying one made in Poland with a Porsche sticker on. Alternatively I could have refitted my old rusty tank on the off-chance that 70's movie star might have filled it up at some point.

If that makes my car a fake Louis Vuitton handbag then slap my arse and call me Gok Wan, darling.

can't guarantee full 40 years more but about a dozen years ago, i went through a thorough body restoration on RHD 2.4 s , suspension, including torsion bars and callipers etc ............the engine had a genuine 66000 miles and was only given new clutch, and a few new gaskets for cosmetic reasons mainly, g ear box did receive new synchros

today its made 118 000 miles and belongs to my son , engine still untouched !
the bodywork was done once , done right .........i still look after the car , its no longer used pretty much daily .................

some of the parts used were 2nd hand , some new and i can't define from memory.................the car did 2 days on track at Spa ,when i had it all booked and a more modern 911 had a problem.........BTW the blue car i think you re referring too was vapour blasted and the only rust , hence only new metal, was in a lower corner of door skin .......so virtually original panel car ......much as i would like another rs ,i have no interest in the car

all i am trying to say is i don't believe one can generalise over the cars , each one has a different story...............currently involved rebuilding a 2.2 s with same folk as 2.4 s, years ago ................totally different project and maybe different outcome ..............but you can be sure it will be authentic ,as original as possible and above all driven as it was meant to be

Sofa and popcorn at the ready !!!

My 74 car had a full engine rebuild after 60,000 miles and all the rusty panels replaced (wings, sills, floors - it was a pear) in 1987 when it was 13 years old. Plenty of other service histories tell similar tales. A good restoration today could well last better than an original Freitagnachmittag car.

My 73T came to me in 1988, just 15 years old.
There was extensive lower rot, all the usual places, 8 months of welding and a DIY re-spray. It was Guards Red (or some red) over the original condor Green. The mechanicals were much the same.
I made my own repair panels for the floor edges, Dansk sills ( ) Dansk door skins (once I had made new door bottoms).

This German car had really suffered.

I found new Porsche rear wings and added mods to the suspension from other 911's. Apart from consumable things like clutches etc it was all second-hand where ever I could find them.

The car became my first hill climb/road car, now called a hot rod. My DIY reworking of the knackered car has lasted till now and it sure has some patina. a few areas are rusty and it needs a good strip and doing again to neaten-up my previous work (I blame all the Barry Shells on here for this).

I am about 70% into the restoration of a 1964 Lambretta.
I have bought tons of new bits for it and without any doubt the new stuff is crap.
Thing is Italian scooters of 50 years age are very very tired and any Italian original parts are long gone, and those around are ..well, 50 years old...and crap.

Such levels of new parts are expected on a restored Lambretta, the scooter would look terrible without the new parts that are readily available from India, Spain and some from China, but only a few.
The Indian parts are really bad and you have to tweek a lot to get them to fit.

I seriously doubt these parts will be anywhere as good as the original parts, but I wont use it like I did my 4 year old Lambretta in '68 to go to my first job.

I do not think you can restore anything (we are interested in) without resort to new parts that can be very 'iffy', but also applied by 'experts' that are equally 'iffy'.

It is not just the bits to worry about, good parts badly installed will equal a bad car, both initially and after a few years.

The Porsche factory used the best they could get (in the day) and assembled those parts really well using very good assembly principles and care.

On such things does a legend grow.

We are truly spoiled for good parts in the Porsche world believe me compared to my recent Lambretta experiences.
Things are not too bad.

carsten wrote: The reason is this, considering pretty much all the vintage reproduction parts are made in strange small factories in cheaper parts of the world,exactly what guarentee do we have that the parts are as strong or well-made as back then?

In the 60/70's they wanted stuff to last.. using the best metallury and designs available to ensure this, today we build stuff to a pricepoint..and limited lifespan to ensure we come back for another dishwasher in 5 years. So exactly what are we getting now?

Some truth here, but I think this does a dis-service to many companies working hard using todays technology and metallurgy to produce parts much improved on what was available to Porsche (or other companies) then.

I think it also does a dis-service to many of the restoration documented on DDK which aren't done to 'a price point'.

Tony

The one area where we really score today is in the quality of anti-corrosion products and sealants. Older Porsches weren't well protected – most cars in the 1960s and '70s weren't – and the later so-called 'galvanised' shells weren't up to much. Today, though, there are so many high-quality anti-rust products around that even most modern repro panels should be able to be made to last as long as (if not longer than) the proorly-protected originals.

"In the 60/70's they wanted stuff to last.. using the best metallury and designs available to ensure this, today we build stuff to a pricepoint..and limited lifespan to ensure we come back for another dishwasher in 5 years. So exactly what are we getting now?"

They might have wanted stuff to last in the 60/70's but that was maybe an aspiration rather than a reality. Having purchased new cars in those decades I can attest to the unreliable crap that was foisted on the unsuspecting public........ Dave pass the popcorn.

Kirk

BMC comes to mind
Lucas..King of Darkness
Welding sills on Vivas for the first MoT
Pop riveting floor pans after 5 years...

Gok Wan and the ass slapping

On a serious note, I think we are all agreeing to a certain extent.. we dont really have a place to turn regarding parts and I am in no way implying a dis-service to anybody restoring a car. Those (myself included) are being held at gunpoint by parts makers to accept whatever stuff they make (good and bad) and accept the frankly ridiculous prices being bandied about. Hell, I know that labour prices havent risen in Poland as much as some parts have risen to, so blessed as we are with the multitude of parts suppliers, we are all trying to build/restore to the best we can.

I was simply questioning the quality of bits flooding the market. I will, however, question some of the "restorers" and 911-specialist shops that have sprouted up since porsches have become goldmines. Alot of them gots fancy websites and talk the talk, but at the end of the day simply bolt shiney bits onto repainted shiney cars. Its all the old school guys with proper skillsets we are losing as they retire (dont get me started on Paint shops.. porsche premium tax added when a similiar sized car can be done for 2/3rds the price..go figure.. got my 240z shell painted for 3000£... my 911ST replicopyfake, the guy quoted 7000£)

i was refering to the Pale blue RS in the Classified discussion section that has build pics of it sitting in a serious rotiserie in back to metal state. Not just a "blown in corner"

I love the hotrod thread on here, and its given me much hope and motivation prior to getting stuck in with own 911 ST'd shell (which I have been considering selling due people telling me I MUST build a replica..at close to 100,000£, otherwise it will be WORTHLESS!!

Live and let live

If you use cars, they de grade and need to repaired / restored to keep them going

Manufactures are only really interested in their next cars

My CSL is getting on for 12 years old ..... BMW can't supply some parts, one guy on the CSL reg has been waiting 18months for some cams

Eventually aftermarket parts are going to have to be used. Some will be better the oem, some will be worse.

If we want to drive these great older cars we have to accept that's the way things are.

If not, you might as well just lease a new car every 3 years .

Personally, these cars are about the driving experience rather than originality


The 'porsche' tax is another issue !

hot66 wrote:Live and let live

Personally, these cars are about the driving experience rather than originality
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I agree.

I also agree with the original poster and his sentiments on quality. I only need to look at my own industry where the degradation of material products is, quite frankly, embarrassing.

The demand for original Porsche parts is finite and yet increasing. I observe the many reps, recreations, clones, tribute cars, call them what you like, and while the owner is quite relaxed about labeling his car an ST rep, or an RSR tribute, or an RS clone in the majority of cases they still demand the fitting of original parts such as Fuchs or arches etc. There are now more cars looking for more original parts than ever before. So, while you say it doesn't matter about originality (to some) it would appear, as parts become worn through driving enjoyment, 'original' cars (are there really many truly original) are finding it ever harder to replace them with period replacements. Hence the rapid rise in re-manufacturing new parts to the original spec. and this is where Carsten, quite rightly, is questioning their material quality. As you say, not everything is worse, some products are good.

I wonder if you would be happy, James, having eventually to fit a set of Braids Fuchs to your S to continue your enjoyment when you park up alongside a 912 hot rod with a 3.2 911 conversion that also sports a set of nice original 6 inch Fuchs? The gene pool of originality, by design and demand, can only get slowly diluted but as you say, does it matter?

Regards
Mike

I agree too Mike

The reason a lot of the CSL parts aren't available / are very limited from BMW or on the 2nd hand market ( carbon airbox, carbon roof, carbon front bumper etc ) anymore is due to regular E46 M3 owners buying up the parts for the standard cars ( especially in the usa where the CSL wasn't sold) . In theory BMW will now not sell CSL parts unless you can produce a CSL chassis number . This is already happening on cars 30 years younger than my Porsche.

Point being, I know where your coming from, but there is little we can do about it ref original parts because as you say, the pool is drying up. What we just need to push for higher and higher quality aftermarket ( and I include Porsche Classic in this ) parts and refuse to accept some of the shite out there. I be just been through a lot of hassle trying to repair a door handle, something you'd have thought would be straight forward.

Trying to help Adam source original engine and gearbox parts ..... They are very difficult to find and it looks like new is going to be the only way


..... If values continue to rise, eventually my S will be sold and replaced by a hot-rod and a cottage in the lakes

hot66 wrote:I agree too Mike

Trying to help Adam source original engine and gearbox parts ..... They are very difficult to find and it looks like new is going to be the only way

It is difficult, and I suppose like many pre-war Marques now, remaking individual parts will eventually become the norm for our cars to keep the enjoyment going....

Regards
Mike