DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker

Guys,

You have come up trumps for people in the past so I am hoping you can help again.

Most of you know I have been trying to sell my 77 Carrera 3.0 since May because of my leg and arm problems. For those of you who know Sue she has a facial tumour which we found out Tuesday is non malignant although it has to be operated in the next 2-3 weeks because of its growth.

I have had no interest in the car other than a couple of dealers wanting it for silly prices and now know by doing HPI checks myself and contacting HPI why this might be so.

Brief details are: -

I bought the car in Jan 2004 knowing it had had an alignment check for body repairs in 1991. I also have a letter from Porsche Cars GB stating the repairs carried out by AFN were “repair to n/s door and bonnet, repaint n/s wing and n/s quarter, o/s wing. The invoiced cost from AFN, now PC GB of course, was £1393. Not the cost of a total rebuild as the result of a write-off for a 911??? The previous owner shall we say may have been sparing with the truth.

My HPI check in 2004 stated on page 2 Condition Inspected "This vehicle has passed a Vehicle Inspection with: Autolign Northampton. Nowhere on the Certificate of Confirmation does it say anything about being damaged, a write off or an insurance loss and surely it should have done on the Certificate if this was the case. There is nothing on the log book either.

In 2012 if you check HPI Ltd for my car they have “VRM and VIN recorded by an insurance company as a repaired total loss” in red letters across the top in the report summary and if you do this thro’ the trade it has a large stop sign.

What does this do to the value of the car? I know Bert says it has no bearing on value because it has undergone checks to make sure it has been repaired to factory standards and after all AFN was almost factory and there can’t be many 911’s of this age that haven’t had some or major repairs .

Where do I try again to sell? It has been on DDK, IB, TIPEC, Pistonheads, classic cars for sale, etc. etc. and what should I price at at? Current retail I have seen is around 27K, private around 25K apart from Colly’s in Ireland. I don't even think the likes of Paul Stephens with whom I had some email exchange would now be interested in selling it for me.

Any help/comments would be greatly appreciated.
Mike.

I'm sorry I think Bert is wrong in this case. It will have a significant effect on value and on the number of people prepared to even consider purchasing it.

Does it say what 'Category' of total loss it was.

Sadly an inspection by 'Autolign Northampton' should always send alarm bells ringing.

I wish you the best of luck with the sale but fear you will only sell at a price reflective of it's insurance and previous damage status

Glad Sue has had some positive news on it being non-malignant and hope op all goes to plan.

Where is your car advertised Mike? can you put up a link.

PS Don't HPI checks have some sort of built in insurance policy if they are wrong up to £10k or something? May be worth looking into if this original wrong report has caused you financial loss...

It's absolutely right that many cars will have had much more significant repairs than yours and are HPi clear, but the HPi marker is a massive issue. Regardless of who repaired it and how well the only way to sell a written off car is to make it so cheap that a buyer is getting a bargain of such magnitude that they are prepared to ignore the history.

Either that or export it at which point the marker disappears.

Gmund have a [presumably] non write-off Minerva Blue car at £20k, the PS car is unsold and carries a 20% LHD premium and AFAIK only the Maxted Page black car has ever broken £25k for RHD and that wasn't by much. I fear you need to be looking at at least 25% less than full value, full value is probably somewhere in the early 20s, depending on condition.

I would strongly suggest putting the status in the ad. I don't think there is a duty for private folk to disclose it like there is dealers, but if you're not up front about what the car is in the first place people might make the judgement that you deliberately hid pertinent information and can't be trusted.

Nige,
Not advertised anyway at pres, thinking of putting it up again in a few weeks.

Jason,
No category this was 1991 long before current classifications in 2005 I think. Yes it does have a 10K but probably out of time - 2004 but there is always section 7 Trades Descriptions I think.

Mike, sorry to hear about the HPI of your car but I'm really pleased to hear the good news about Sue. Wish her well from me.

mikeblow wrote:Nige,

Jason,
No category this was 1991 long before current classifications in 2005 I think. Yes it does have a 10K but probably out of time - 2004 but there is always section 7 Trades Descriptions I think.

I'd be doing some research into these points Mike if I was you - worth the effort. See if some people from the trade can help - maybe try PMing John Glynn to see what he knows from his previous life?

Sam wrote:...Either that or export it at which point the marker disappears...

Exporting wrecked cars for repair in Ireland and re-import was a common way of doing this. There's more than a few early 911s over the years that have been that route. Back in the 80s there was also a trade in LHD cars from Germany that came to UK for repair and RHD conversion whilst also conveniently losing history.

Ian.

Wouldnt that be called money laundering in my business?

Hey Mike

Great news about Sue and it sounds like she'll be soon sorted out!

Now - what about you? Weren't you due for an MOT on the 28th? Let me know by pm or email, please.

Sod the car, that's only money! Let's have you two right first and progress from there, you never know you might get your knee sorted in time for next years driving season.

Regards from the Philippines, where it's hot and humid!

Mick,

pm sent.

Mike

With regard to the "write-off" status, actually "Condition Inspected" is probably the right status. This is what a Cat D gets when it goes to Autolign (assuming they pass it). I suspect that you'll get nowhere trying to get money out of HPI for a wrong check when you purchased.

The thing is that if it was successfully inspected, the current HPI check should say that. You may get more mileage out of getting HPI to give it this designation. That doesn't get you out of the woods, but if the HPI check says condition inspected, then you can advertise it as such (as the two will match) and it should help a little on the buyers front. In answer to the other thread, that's what I had to do with my Caterham which was totally mad. The Autolign guys took one look at it and said it clearly and obviously passed as it had a new chassis!

It is very annoying as it has been fixed and inspected and shouldn't carry any significant stigma from a repair such a long time ago.

Graham

Graham,

Thanks for your comments. Condition Inspected is the right status. Unfortunately HPI Ltd keep moving the goalposts. The car is now listed as a write off, the exact wording being “This VRM has been recorded as having been repaired and inspected after previously being written off”. This has moved from “This vehicle has passed a vehicle inspection with Autolign Northampton”. I believe this is a result of my enquiries because nothing else can have changed. HPI, Insurer and Autolign say they have no records back to the 90’s or they are lying.

Apologies for the delay in replying but it has taken DVLA 10 weeks having lost all my original forms etc., to finally give me a copy of the V23 showing the incident. The report by the Insurer with the claim number matches the one I obtained from HPI only by getting a solicitor to write and demand the info. The form has the box ticked for “Constructive total loss (beyond economical repair)” not “Unrepairable wrecked vehicle” and the accident detail only states “rear”. I knew the car had had a rear bump when I bought it so it was obviously expedient for the insurer to pay out a claim and sell the car to a salvage company (detailed on the form) to save money. I’m sure they easily covered their costs or wouldn’t have done it. This was a common occurrence in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s and this was back in 1991. Have we any broker or insurer members of DDK who can comment?

What matters now surely is the condition of the car as now and an independent engineer’s report would show this. So whilst it is good to know that the car was properly repaired to factory standards confirmed by the Autolign check it is fairly irrelevant in 2013 the car having run without problem for the last 19 years. I doubt there are many early 911s which haven’t been bumped or devoured by the rust bug and needed major work and any perfect examples will probably be out of reach on price for most enthusiasts of normal means.

It is worth DDK members checking their own cars if they haven’t already but I wouldn’t recommend with HPI because all the details are not correct for my car on their register.

At least with this car and all the effort I have put into researching a buyer knows exactly what they are buying and doesn’t have to rely on information bought by commercial organisations from insurers. The car is for sale on my behalf at the garage it has been serviced at for the last 10 years at £23,495. Anyone interested can contact Paul Benn at P&R Benn Rallying Ltd on 01900 820 000.