Which welder shall I buy? You there Barry?

sladey · Post by **sladey** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:10 pm

It's my birthday coming up. I want to buy a welder. I don't have much to spend on it - say £150/200 tops

What would people recommend? I know you can buy second hand stuff and I'm all in favour of that but I've got no idea what I'm looking at.

I've seen the adverts for the new ones - but you seem to get 8 different models that all look the same but have different amp ratings (and therefore price points). Some say Gas turbo MIG, Inverter arc, Gasless turbo, stick rod, etc - not really clear what all these mean and which would suit me as a complete novice (obviously I've had a go with Barry's slapper but apart from that I'm a novice)

Initially I'm looking to just learn how to use it and do some basic bodywork repairs (got some cracking near the rear ARB). It would be nice to get something that will last me longer than 6 months.

Thanks for any help

Gary71 · Post by **Gary71** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:30 pm

I've been through this one Mark, same budget etc.

Bottom line is that if you want something worthy of the name welder you need to spend double your budget and then some.

I bought a Portamig:

Not this one, but similar a 215 amp Mig.

Great machine. I am the limiting factor, not the kit.

If you only want occasional use then rent one

sladey · Post by **sladey** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:30 pm

Thanks for that Gary - bit too rich for me at the moment though - I need to be satisfied I'm going to use it before I spend that much - I need to get something closer to my budget and then trade up in a year or two

Nige · Post by **Nige** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:42 am

I've been using a borrowed manky Clarke jobby for years. Its restored my beetle, may mates campers, 914s and a few bits on my Karmann Ghia and 911. Its been in the same circle of friends for about 20 years! I can't even remember who bought it, its in my shed at the moment. For little jobby repairs its done us proud. Think it was a £150-200 starter set which came with a free mask n sh*t.

Its been fine for what we've done, bits of body/panel work and shed loads of chassis stuff. As with painting/spraying alot of its down to preparation and having good clean steel to start with.

I'd get yourself down to Machine Mart or B&Q and see what offers they have. For £150 you ain't going to be disappointed really.

Barry · Post by **Barry** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:05 am

Hi Mark

.

TBH, your budget is a little on the lean side. Usually I would recommend hanging out for a used single phase professional unit (generally, if it's got a 'Euro' fitting for the torch lead, i.e a quick-release between the torch lead and welder body, it's a pro-unit).

At the time you were here, there was one old pro-MIG and an equally ancient DIY MIG (a Sealey). Overall opinion on the day was that actually both welders could produce very good welds.

The main differences between DIY and pro are as follows:

1) Pro's are much more consistant and forgiving. Therefore when conditions get a little tricky, the DIY one is more likely to fall down on weld quality.

2) Duty-cycle: the pro-welder will be able to run all day on the sort of power we use, whereas a DIY one might have to be left to cool now and then: frankly still not an issue as actually, even DIY duty cycles have come up to a point where you'd probably never have to stop unless welding some heavy angle iron for a workbench or similar. On bodywork, they'd all pretty much be the same.

3) DIY welders come with horrible little regulators that take little DIY gas bottles: they are the work of the devil, avoid at all costs.

4) The wire feeds on the DIY welders are tiny, and very prone to slipping compared to the pro's.

Anyway, in the real world, and for your circumstances, here's what I would suggest:

Option one: look for a 2nd hand pro-quality welder (single phase) that the owner can demonstrate. Your budget might get you one, albeit by the skin of your teeth. As for make, best bet is to give me a quick ring / P.M. if you don't recognise the name, and I'll check it out.

Look for something single phase, 150-180 amps, that can take 0.6mm wire (great for thin metal). If it's 220 amps (ish), and only goes down to 1.0 or 0.8mm wire, it might be a bit heavy duty.

Option two: Get a DIY quality one: there's little between the makes as I suspect they are mainly made in the same places and then badged up. Again, 140-150 amps should be fine, and you want:

1) As many settings as possible to vary power: six minimum, ideally eight, or variable dial.

2) 'Turbo' or fan cooled: keeps duty cycle up, and over-heating down.

3) Wire feed rollers that can take either 0.8 and 0.6mm wires. If you're not doing much welding, buy the little .8KG rolls of wire, rather than 5KG ones, even if you buy two at once. Keep the spare indoors, and move the machine's roll indoors as well if it's not going to be used for a while. Keeps the wire bright: dull wire is knackered and should be binned. It doesn't feed well, wears out the tips, and spatters.

4) If you can run to renting a cylinder, get a full size cylinder regulator (any welding suppliers can get you these, I don't think they are mega money). Rent a small (PT10 is the Air Products small size bottle) of Cougar 5. It is the ideal MIG welding gas, and much better than pure CO2 that the DIY bottles generally come with. BTW, the other DIY bottles you see are argon: despite what Halfords tell you, this isn't for MIG welding steel and is a waste of cash. It's there for welding aluminium, which MIG welders really struggle with for power delivery reasons (another story

).

Overall I would say that the priority here isn't the welder, but the gas. I'd rather have a DIY welder (even 2nd hand) running pro-gas, than a pro-welder on DIY gas.

The way I would summarise everything is that the DIY welder might simply need a little more help along the way than the pro alternatives to get great results. A perfect, reliable flow of high quality, bespoke MIG welding gas (Air Products Cougar 5, BOC Argoshield being the other option) is a good start, together with the following tips:

a) Make sure that the welder is set up perfectly, as we did on the course: I can write up a refesher if you like.

b) Keep the feed wire nice and straight (as possible), even if you have to lift the welder up level with the work (I often put my little Kemppi Inverter MIG up on a stool so that the feed gets the nicest run possibe). Avoid sharp bends and kinks.

c) Keep the tip of the torch perfect, and change it often. Be aware that DIY and pro welders use different size tips.

d) Keep the work as clean as possible, bare, shiny steel is the only way to do things.

e) Set the welder up 'on the bench': if you can't produce a perfect weld on the bench with new steel, it ain't going to happen on a car.

Finally, a few thing you don't need:

i) Gasless : this means that the welder can have it's leads reversed, and that flux-covered wire can be used. Only any use if you were welding outside where the shielding gas would be blown away. Nothing to pay extra for, but no reason to reject a welder either.

ii) Stick welder: basically an arc welder, even if they suggest it for body-welding (these are just low amp arc welders designed to take light duty welding rods). Utterly useless unless you are welding farm gates out in the field. Avoid.

iii) Turbo: as above, just means 'it's got a fan'. You need this (a fan) but don't pay more for a Turbo badge, just make sure that one way or another it's fan cooled.

HTH

sladey · Post by **sladey** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:39 pm

Thanks for all that Barry great advice. Thanks for your comments as well Nige.

Barry, if you could publish some sort of refresher as to setting up that would be brilliant, but only if you've got the time. I've got a load of old steel shelving units which I'll probably break up to make some stuff with for practice.

Earlier this morning I did some googling myself and found some quite good info for the novice. First some basic, general guides:-
http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/buying.htm

and then a summary of 'hobby' welders:-
http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=661

Following your advice Barry i think I'll try and hold out for one with a euro-fitting for the torch lead - although I may well crumble and go for a clarke one

Thanks again for all the advice - I'm getting excited about this now! (yes I realise I should probably get out more - my daughter's just off to see the Kaiser chiefs and I'm writing about welders on an internet forum)

Cheers

Mark

fourteener · Post by **fourteener** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:37 pm

After following Barry's wisdom I couldn't believe how bright, shiny and smooth the Argoshield made my welds on a hobby machine. And then with a euro-torched pro-welder same jump in quality again.
If you go with a hobby machine then get an adapter for a pub/BOC bottle and get a local supplier to 'fill' it for you with some gas

Bob_Salmon · Post by **Bob_Salmon** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:03 pm

Mark - I might have a suitable compromise for you. I will try and get some photographs and details together tomorrow.

Bob

Barry · Post by **Barry** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:29 pm

Hi Mark: that website does seem to rate the Clark products, and there are certainly loads of them out there. Might even be worth looking at a 2nd hand one, as chances are many won't have seen much use at all. BTW, bare in mind that with a DIY machine you are paying for a welding mask, regulator and bottle of gas (possibly), none of which will be much good. I'd rather have a used machine (that the owner has demo'ed), and use the saving for an auto-dimming mask, and the big bottle regulator.

As for the Euro torch: it just means that it's slightly more likey to be a bit more of a pro-machine. Having said that, my £700 Kemppi inverter MIG doesn't have a full Euro torch but is very much a pro-machine, just in a tiny package (new since the courses).

BTW, Having a very quick scan around the DIY machines, it looks as though you have to be very careful to make sure it'll crank down enough. Really your minimum amps needs to be 30, and ideally less than that. Also a lot of the DIY machines still look to have only four power settings, which may be a bit course really. Not a disaster, but six / eight would be better

.

As for the setting up, and some welding tricks, I'll get going on something this week, time permitting

.

sladey · Post by **sladey** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:40 pm

Thanks Bob - look forward to hearing from you

Thanks Barry - I've found one I'm interested in - will PM you the details

Gary71 · Post by **Gary71** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:01 pm

I highly recommend the auto dimming masks, worth every penny. With a decent light on your subject you can see exactly where you are positioning the torch and get a good bead going from the 1st arc (well, most of the time!)

sladey · Post by **sladey** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:19 am

Just to finish this one off I got an excellent second hand one from Bob - picked it up this morning and it looks great Bob

Just got to get myself set up with some gas now and I'll be off!

Barry · Post by **Barry** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:28 am

Bob_Salmon · Post by **Bob_Salmon** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:43 am

Just don't start on the bodywork Mark! Lots of practice on scrap metal to start with.............

Bob