Hi all, which full flow system is the best and best value.
I was considering the Precision Matters spin on filter system but im not sure if it will have room for the Sebring style exhaust I have.
Dave
Which Full Flow oil system is best
Which Full Flow oil system is best
Avoiding local so-called self proclaimed specialists.
-
Burma-Shave
- Put a fork in me, I'm done!
- Posts: 1940
- Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:52 pm
- Location: Fife, Scotland
Hi. I am going to do this, probably this winter.
I posted on DDK
http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/viewto ... highlight=
and 356 registry
http://356registry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1633
about it.
Was thinking about a little group buy from Precision Matters (and a group therapy session to fit it!)
My Bursch exhaust doesnt leave room for the plug-straight-in adaptor, but fitting a remote oil filter mount doesnt sound like a big problem, and its a bit cheaper. The basic precision matters system of replacing the oil pump cover looks like a winner to me, whether the actual filter is right there by the plate or mounted in the wing is less of a big deal...
I posted on DDK
http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/viewto ... highlight=
and 356 registry
http://356registry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1633
about it.
Was thinking about a little group buy from Precision Matters (and a group therapy session to fit it!)
My Bursch exhaust doesnt leave room for the plug-straight-in adaptor, but fitting a remote oil filter mount doesnt sound like a big problem, and its a bit cheaper. The basic precision matters system of replacing the oil pump cover looks like a winner to me, whether the actual filter is right there by the plate or mounted in the wing is less of a big deal...
1990 964 C4, 1999 Boxster 2.5
And..'89 BMW E30 325i Touring. '83 Mercedes 280E. '84 Citroen 2CV. '16 BMW i3 REx. '03 BMW R1100S. '99 Yamaha R1. '79 BMW R100 scrambler.
Member#0336
And..'89 BMW E30 325i Touring. '83 Mercedes 280E. '84 Citroen 2CV. '16 BMW i3 REx. '03 BMW R1100S. '99 Yamaha R1. '79 BMW R100 scrambler.
Member#0336
-
Mike Smith
- DDK rules my life!
- Posts: 1229
- Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:37 am
- Location: Billericay, Essex
- Contact:
Full Flow Oil Filter Systems
Just a few thoughts
Don`t forget to think about the Rev Counter Drive in your perusals
Also work out the cost of all the Aeroquip Fittings and Pipe if you go for the remote system
Do NOT position the Oil Filter in the engine Bay - you are trying to cool the engine - not warm it up
Mike at PR
Don`t forget to think about the Rev Counter Drive in your perusals
Also work out the cost of all the Aeroquip Fittings and Pipe if you go for the remote system
Do NOT position the Oil Filter in the engine Bay - you are trying to cool the engine - not warm it up
Mike at PR
full flow filter
Well, I would like the spin on filter type if it fits so I would be up for a mass purchase effort at some point in my rebuild.
Dave
Dave
Avoiding local so-called self proclaimed specialists.
-
Dakota
- DDK forever
- Posts: 586
- Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:46 pm
- Location: SE London under a rusty car
Hi
not wishing to rock the boat but why go for a full flow system at all unless you want to plumb in an oil cooler , if you keep on top of your oil changes and make sure you are carefull not to allow dirt in when adding oil its not really necessary and you could use the arguement that if something is starting to fail, like a cam lobe, it will catch the crap, but if you have a problem like that its a strip down anyway...
Another thing to consider is that by adding something onto an engine you are giving yourself another potential thing to go wrong and if a full flow set up is badly executed it definitely will go wrong and even a dainty little 356 pump will dump a lot of oil very quickly.
I am not a fan of the outlet coming out of the pump cover as in effect its forcing the flow out at ninety degrees which puts even more load on the spade end of the oil pump gears and the slot in the cam and these are two areas that really don't need any more encouragement to wear , its better to come out the side of the motor and back in the top although then you can see the workings from above , also I would suggest straight fittings with dowty washers and nuts as with taper fittings its a bit awkward to decide when they are tight and if they do work loose they don't have to move very far to be really loose . So if you don't really need one save yourself the trouble and spend the money you have saved on more oil changes and possibly one of those fancy ally oil coolers.
not wishing to rock the boat but why go for a full flow system at all unless you want to plumb in an oil cooler , if you keep on top of your oil changes and make sure you are carefull not to allow dirt in when adding oil its not really necessary and you could use the arguement that if something is starting to fail, like a cam lobe, it will catch the crap, but if you have a problem like that its a strip down anyway...
Another thing to consider is that by adding something onto an engine you are giving yourself another potential thing to go wrong and if a full flow set up is badly executed it definitely will go wrong and even a dainty little 356 pump will dump a lot of oil very quickly.
I am not a fan of the outlet coming out of the pump cover as in effect its forcing the flow out at ninety degrees which puts even more load on the spade end of the oil pump gears and the slot in the cam and these are two areas that really don't need any more encouragement to wear , its better to come out the side of the motor and back in the top although then you can see the workings from above , also I would suggest straight fittings with dowty washers and nuts as with taper fittings its a bit awkward to decide when they are tight and if they do work loose they don't have to move very far to be really loose . So if you don't really need one save yourself the trouble and spend the money you have saved on more oil changes and possibly one of those fancy ally oil coolers.
I am a person of simple pleasures so if you don't have any simple pleasures to offer me, beer, pizza or Porsche bits etc kindly leave me be, XX.
all sounds good apart from the oil cooler bit..
It seams some people are obsessed with cooling the oil..
Most of the cars are for road use and even if you are going to do the odd track day your not going to worry about cooling the oil too much.. You need to get to a sensible temp and keep it there.. Filtration is the key to these engines and building them right from the start will give you your 100,000 mile engine. Plus regular oil changes.
I have a 12 here with the oddest of US contraptions I am taking off .. first off we have removed the oil cooler and fitted a adapter plate..
taken the oil from there to a filter which is mounted upside down to an oil cooler mounted just above the exhaust!! and dropped the oil back into the oil expansion tank
Oh dear Oh dear Oh dear!!!!
it's all coming off and going on the shelf of laughter..
It seams some people are obsessed with cooling the oil..
Most of the cars are for road use and even if you are going to do the odd track day your not going to worry about cooling the oil too much.. You need to get to a sensible temp and keep it there.. Filtration is the key to these engines and building them right from the start will give you your 100,000 mile engine. Plus regular oil changes.
I have a 12 here with the oddest of US contraptions I am taking off .. first off we have removed the oil cooler and fitted a adapter plate..
taken the oil from there to a filter which is mounted upside down to an oil cooler mounted just above the exhaust!! and dropped the oil back into the oil expansion tank Oh dear Oh dear Oh dear!!!!
it's all coming off and going on the shelf of laughter..
I've run 1500, 1600n, 1600s and 1720 lumps with excessive thrashing to within an inch of their fragile little lives and only ever used the OE oil cooling. Mark & Dakota are right here I think: regular oil changes seem to do the trick - and parking for a cool down after scragging it cross country!
I have run big CC VW engines with external filters/coolers but never seen the need on the relatively small 356. I'd like to hear Mike PR's thoughts on this one as i'm always looking to improve on my 'station-to-home' times...
As an aside, here's my recent 'oil change' methodology: split something important and then let it pour gracefully across the garage floor...
I have run big CC VW engines with external filters/coolers but never seen the need on the relatively small 356. I'd like to hear Mike PR's thoughts on this one as i'm always looking to improve on my 'station-to-home' times...
As an aside, here's my recent 'oil change' methodology: split something important and then let it pour gracefully across the garage floor...
C U B I S T - 1 1 1 5
'83 Triumph Acclaim - 3sp Auto (cat D)
Singer 3232 - Titanium bobbin, Autothread
'67 Gresham Flyer - Puncture, rear
Sherbet Lemons - 4oz, loose
Motorola - PG 2000, locked
'83 Triumph Acclaim - 3sp Auto (cat D)
Singer 3232 - Titanium bobbin, Autothread
'67 Gresham Flyer - Puncture, rear
Sherbet Lemons - 4oz, loose
Motorola - PG 2000, locked
spin on filter system
Well I agree with Mike on this that the filter system is far from great and the Precision matters spin on filter gets rid of all the nasty pipe work and besides im sure if porsche thought of it for the 911 then its good enough for a 356.
No need for extra cooling but a better filter system - yes please.
The precision filter also lowers the centre of gravity of the car as it moves the filter from above the engine to near under it. Ha ha hah ah ha.
Also looks the business. I want one but dont want to pay andy double what they pay in the USA.
Is this another case of price fixin? owwww controversial.
No need for extra cooling but a better filter system - yes please.
The precision filter also lowers the centre of gravity of the car as it moves the filter from above the engine to near under it. Ha ha hah ah ha.
Also looks the business. I want one but dont want to pay andy double what they pay in the USA.
Is this another case of price fixin? owwww controversial.
Avoiding local so-called self proclaimed specialists.
-
Burma-Shave
- Put a fork in me, I'm done!
- Posts: 1940
- Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:52 pm
- Location: Fife, Scotland
Interesting to hear Dakota's thoughts - obviously you know your way around the engine. I might pass them on to Pre Mat, as they may have considered some of these problems.
Thanks for your input Mike - seems they are mainly for post electric tach motors.
With a filter in the rear wing you get some extra cooling too, apparently makes sense- maybe you wouldnt get that so much with a screw-on near the exhaust. The advice is also to simply leave the original bath in situ - so Ren, you are adding extra weight in the wrong place! Gads!
TBH, more cooling is not what I need. I have trouble keeping it hot enough! I was at a rally in Hawick at the weekend and whilst everyone else was engine off bonnet open, I was idling to keep the damn thing up to temp in between events!
Thanks for your input Mike - seems they are mainly for post electric tach motors.
With a filter in the rear wing you get some extra cooling too, apparently makes sense- maybe you wouldnt get that so much with a screw-on near the exhaust. The advice is also to simply leave the original bath in situ - so Ren, you are adding extra weight in the wrong place! Gads!
TBH, more cooling is not what I need. I have trouble keeping it hot enough! I was at a rally in Hawick at the weekend and whilst everyone else was engine off bonnet open, I was idling to keep the damn thing up to temp in between events!
1990 964 C4, 1999 Boxster 2.5
And..'89 BMW E30 325i Touring. '83 Mercedes 280E. '84 Citroen 2CV. '16 BMW i3 REx. '03 BMW R1100S. '99 Yamaha R1. '79 BMW R100 scrambler.
Member#0336
And..'89 BMW E30 325i Touring. '83 Mercedes 280E. '84 Citroen 2CV. '16 BMW i3 REx. '03 BMW R1100S. '99 Yamaha R1. '79 BMW R100 scrambler.
Member#0336
There's a good article on the PM website that helped me make an informed decision along with a chat with Andy Prill:
http://www.precisionmatters.biz/pdf/ful ... ration.pdf
It's worth studying the diagram at the bottom of the second page for a while and figuring out what happens on startup. The bypass valve ensures that the main bearings get oil on startup before closing and allowing oil to flow round the full circuit. The main thing that puzzled me for a bit is the oil flows in the opposite direction down the main gallery accoding to whether the valve is open or shut! Being more familiar with VW engines till now (compare diagrams here http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FAQ/im ... matics.gif ) I was unaware that the oil pump take off cover fitted to my car was bypassing the bypass valve! Net result is that the filter (of course I'd fitted the biggest one I could lay my hands on! D'Oh!) has to fill up before the bearings get any oil (I now have a first undersize crank to prove it!). All of the books I've read so far skip over this...including Duane Spencer's books which the diagram is taken from! I decided to go with what the article refers to as "old school system 1" for the following reasons:
It was the cheapest conversion from the CSP pump cover take off previously fitted to my car.
Moving the entire system below the oil line makes the filter vulnerable to damage and fitting a non-return valve still doesnt address the fact that the stock oil cooler has to fill up on start up.
The PM filter pump cover situates the filter next to the exhaust manifold which can't be good for oil running temperatures.
The PM inlet/outlet cover and the filter pump cover situate an outlet and inlet in the space previously occupied by an outlet only, so (in addition to Dakota's comments about pump cover outlets) will be more restrictive of oil flow than the stock pump (however I didnt look into it far enough to figure it out, the design may well account for this). and the conversion involves machining the pump housing (irreversible mod due to the fact that its an integral part of the third piece of the case). However I didnt look into it far enough to figure this out. The design may well account for this.
Cooling? I've never managed to overheat my car yet so I decided extra cooling wasn't necessary. If I did however I'd want to make sure there was a thermostat and a bypass between the filter and any extra cooling.
Andy Prill is an agent for the Precision Matters kit and supplied my "old school" system. http://www.maxted-pageandprill.com
http://www.precisionmatters.biz/pdf/ful ... ration.pdf
It's worth studying the diagram at the bottom of the second page for a while and figuring out what happens on startup. The bypass valve ensures that the main bearings get oil on startup before closing and allowing oil to flow round the full circuit. The main thing that puzzled me for a bit is the oil flows in the opposite direction down the main gallery accoding to whether the valve is open or shut! Being more familiar with VW engines till now (compare diagrams here http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FAQ/im ... matics.gif ) I was unaware that the oil pump take off cover fitted to my car was bypassing the bypass valve! Net result is that the filter (of course I'd fitted the biggest one I could lay my hands on! D'Oh!) has to fill up before the bearings get any oil (I now have a first undersize crank to prove it!). All of the books I've read so far skip over this...including Duane Spencer's books which the diagram is taken from! I decided to go with what the article refers to as "old school system 1" for the following reasons:
It was the cheapest conversion from the CSP pump cover take off previously fitted to my car.
Moving the entire system below the oil line makes the filter vulnerable to damage and fitting a non-return valve still doesnt address the fact that the stock oil cooler has to fill up on start up.
The PM filter pump cover situates the filter next to the exhaust manifold which can't be good for oil running temperatures.
The PM inlet/outlet cover and the filter pump cover situate an outlet and inlet in the space previously occupied by an outlet only, so (in addition to Dakota's comments about pump cover outlets) will be more restrictive of oil flow than the stock pump (however I didnt look into it far enough to figure it out, the design may well account for this). and the conversion involves machining the pump housing (irreversible mod due to the fact that its an integral part of the third piece of the case). However I didnt look into it far enough to figure this out. The design may well account for this.
Cooling? I've never managed to overheat my car yet so I decided extra cooling wasn't necessary. If I did however I'd want to make sure there was a thermostat and a bypass between the filter and any extra cooling.
Andy Prill is an agent for the Precision Matters kit and supplied my "old school" system. http://www.maxted-pageandprill.com