Special getting closer...

[johnM]

Hi Graham

I feel for you, a bit of a rocky road your travelling at the moment.

I was wondering about piston squirters, if one was blocked it would mean a piston would run hot, not sure if that could result in the catastrophic damage. Just a thought.
Have you spoken to Mike Bainbridge?

Kind Regards

[911hillclimber]

Yes, but not since stripping the engine down.

I am just not sure to dump this long engine and get a 964/993 long block, use the 50mm PMO's and the flat fan/headers.

Such a long engine off ebay is £3000 ish, and apart from a good clean externally and some stripping of unwanted bits, electronic ignition for the twin dist and the clutch...I'm 'sorted'

I do have 9 months to do it in!

Even if I change the engine to anything else (and the gearbox remember) the bill will be £3K or there abouts.
The flat six fits this old chassis so well and was unique (I know to two others being built now), so really want to stay Porsche.

To rebuild this old engine

Gaskets and bearing rebiuld kit £900
Work at Bob Watsons 500
Replacement parts £600 (second hand)

£2000 for the old thing freshened and 250 bhp

Or 993 with 300 bhp but second hand.

[gridgway]

Graham, have you worked out the risk...ie the risk of either approach being more than you thought.

I know that you are doing a lot of the work yourself, but 2k to get that lot sorted sounds, well like it might just have some man-maths in it!

Graham

[911hillclimber]

Probably.....
Fed-up paying and paying TBH.
I can go round in circles for months on this, rebuild, 2nd hand, Pinto/Hewland, sell the lot.

The PMO's are worth a bit, the fab flat fan would look great in a 911 hot rod!
Odds and sods a few bob.
I have well surpassed the point of no return, but it is tempting to throw the towl in on the whole fiasco.

Saving grace though is when it runs it is Sh-t hot.
I have had all of 15 runs that are good, and at about 50 seconds/run = 750 seconds or 12.5mins of fun.

With this outlook spending £x thousands more is not appealling.

If i go 964 (been offered a light fire damaged engine for 2500) I don't know if these engines (or the 993's) are wider in overall width than the pre 89 911 engines. (anyone know?)
If they are wider then it wont go into the chassis!

The minimum risk is to rebuild as everything fits and can work, it is just a bog standard 3.2 after all.

A 964/993 simply opens up another bag of snakes, and I doubt i have the energy to fight them.(at the moment)

I hate hate hate giving in to these stupid problems, I don't give in at work, and I certainly still want to get this sorted, just feel a bit/lot frustrated by it all.

Starting to check the internals carefully tonight and rest of the week. Bob will put the engine through his demon washer when I'm ready which will take the risk out of a lot of things with so much metal absolutly everywhere, even into the #4 carb choke.

[gridgway]

well it looks to me like 43 pages of not giving in to me!!!

If it's any consolation, my (radical) racing season is completely shite so far this year. I've had a couple of really good successes...quali 6th out of 32 at donington, taking 2 secs off my best Snett time, being beaten by Miss Ridg testing at Silverstone and Donington (she was on-fire - not literally you understand, that was last year). But despite that, between us we've had no finishes to speak of, completely written off one car, had another two big offs and very painfully fractured two ribs (mine!).

I won't give in if you dont!

Graham

[911hillclimber]

I'm hanging-on by my nails!

Completed the strip down tonight.

Some good and some bad of course.
Good:
Oil pump is clean inside
Rest of the rods look good, crank too
No 8 bearing good

Bad:

#4 head knackered.
Interesting damage. Looks like the head panted a little under the repeated strain of the failure and some face damage where the cylinder top land was.
Both valves bent: see the pic.
I suspect all 4 cylinder studs are duff/stretched so will need replacing.

found the reason why 1/2/3 cylinders popped all their inlets, there is a big piece of piston skirt jammed in the crank cogs and some teeth are off. The chain had to ride over this quite a few times before coming to rest.
The chain cog will need replacing on the intermediate shaft. The front one was shielded by the large gear wheel which is sound. At least you can replace them.

Time to add this lot up and decide if I should dump this engine and use a 993/964 on PMO's and electronic ignition.
New clutch needed and a few other bits I think.

[Matt black70]

Hi Graham.
I've contacted Derek, he has a 993 engine out of the car which you can measure, he's only in ironbridge, he'll send you a pm tomorrow.
I'm sure there will be more issues than are visible, your engine has been under a hell of a strain which could has fatigued many parts that may not be evident until its too late.

Get another one,strip to check dims, you know it's the safe bet.

Regards

Matt

[haasad]

Thats the secondary issue identified then. Surely better to go with a replacement long block of some description and use all your super lovely ancillaries. . Having said tha t I noticed some 3.2 parts on pistonheads like pistons heads cases etc might be worth a call.

I've got a spare cam chain drive sprocket you can have

You'll find a way .....

andy

[Brookesy]

I would go the 964/993 route Graham, there are too many potentially stressed parts in that 3.2 to cause future problems.

Your ancillaries should swap over with minor mods, and the flat fan and alloy casing for it should be able to be adapted. Speak to Crispin, I know there have been a lot of minor changes since your ownership but he built it originally and fitted the flat fan system, so should be able to advise if it will fit the later engines.

To think, I put a deposit on this motor with Terry when he first decided to sell it but then backed out because my funds dried up. This motor certainly has had some money sunk into it. I would cut my loses and start afresh... but stay with the flat six.

[911hillclimber]

I priced the parts to 'refresh' it last night £1532.
ADDED to this are another cylinder head (I've seen the PH ones ), piston/Barrel/rod, 6 inlet rockers (ebay £40 each)

I can get the bits off bob no trouble.

however, need to weight adjust the piston to the unmarked others and open the gallaries of the crankcase clean replug.

So I guess Bob's bill to be £750 ish
So, lets call it £2500/3000.

+
Everything fits back.
-
Everything might let go again...

964
Old engine available but 70k+ miles, £3000 ebay
Needs work to get right.

+
Stronger unit, parts will fit.
-
Some work to do, clutch to sort out.
Needs electronic ign

993
Younger engine, £3500
High output, strong engine
+
Above
-
Clutch/headers wont fit (flange orientation) dry sump connections
Fan may not fit
Needs electronic ignition

911(!)

Everything fits, high miles = rebuild!
£3000

Conclusion?

[Mike911scrs]

HI Graham
the flywheel and clutch will swap over to the 964/993 engine (would be better if balanced)
the intake on the 964/993 is 3 bolt and not the 2 you have now, ether adapters or manifolds for the carbs
the exhaust should swap across, only both engines have long studs
down side of the 964 engine is oil leaks and head joints leaking due to the 11:1 CR and not letting the engine warm up before knocking 10 bells of s***** out of it
993 has hydraulic tappets so your RPM limit will be STD or a conversion kit back to adjusters,
both engines do not have oil coolers, the 964 has nothing and the 993 has a oil filter in place of the cooler, both can be back dated with work.

regards mike

[Brookesy]

Unless you have changed things Graham, your engine like mine did not run with an engine mounted oil cooler just the external one. Mine uses the 993 oil filter mount as Mike mentions as it can be retro fitted to the earlier cars. So your cooling system should be able to remain as is, as far as layout goes.
Go on upgrade to 3.6......

[911hillclimber]

Thanks Mike, I thought the 964 had the same inlet manifold design as the 911.
The over-riding factor is.....
The distance between the chassis rails is 815mm absolute.
The widest point across the 993 is 840mm so the 993 will not fit the car!

I have no idea what the 964 measures (yet), so I might simply have to rebuild the old 911 I have.
Although the engine failure was quite a bump, the engine now fully stripped looks ok other than the damage I've listed.

The biggest favour in the old engine is when running it was super strong.
Why it let go I will never know.

Mike, have you got 6 inlet rockers?

[Mike911scrs]

HI Graham
did you take the sharp edge of the top of the guide before you tried to fit the stem seals, and the guides should be all the same size, unless the heads have been opened out for O/S guides, even then the end for the stem seal will still be the same size, when the one guide was taken for reaming, did the seat get checked at the same time and re-cut?? use the "ThreeBond" on the case 1/2's , remove the crank and seal the "nose"/No8 bearing before you fit the other case 1/2, then fit the flywheel oil seal and case 1/2 flush with OUT SIDE of the crank case, do NOT push it as far in as poss'.

regards mike

[911hillclimber]

Ah!
Youv'e been looking elsewhere Mike on this saga!

The head is now gone for fitting of the seal!
I could not get one on, and ovalised/ruined 3 in the process before loosing my patience.

Heads # 4 & 5 needed now seats, in # 4 the damaged one, the seats were cracked.

4 new seats of course need 4 new guides. One was not right and the new inlet would not enter until reamed open. The new seats were machined and then double angled after the first cut/lap.

I had great difficulty drifting the seals on 3 of the new guides, there being no lead to help things align and drift on. The 4th beat me.
All the other heads have the original guides in them, and the seals drifted on easy (in comparison)

Thanks for the tips on the crank. It is 'sleeping' in the one half, be cased-up this weekend. I hadn't sealed N08 at all, just thought the O ring was enough. Will follow your tip.

I had done the flywheel seal as you suggest. If you place the seal as deep as possible it looks like the lip could actually run off the journal!

I'm following the controversial Dempsey book...