Is it just me, or...

[911hillclimber]

Yet another company looking for the £400K annual bonus from the few above us.

185 bhp from 3 litres? poor efficiency.
Customization available I'm sure at extra cost, just like Singer and everyone else. No soft top?
Best bits are 5 speed box, good brakes.

Bet you could get those done by a specialist for £20K, restore a car for £100K (all restorations are 100K + now).

Just all another 'Restomod' (sorry Keith) on the conveyor belt, here today, prob gone tomorrow.

Beats me where all this spare cash comes from?

[sisu]

But RWB cars are thrown together with little thought to execution and engineering. Sabre-saw to attack the bodywork, silicon and pop-rivets to glue bits back on – plus absurdly wide wheel spacers to fill out the oversized wings. A friend in Malaysia has one - the rear suspension collapsed at 70mph on the freeway due to the loadings imposed upon it by the use of excessively wide wheel spacers and the heavily offset wheels. I'll see if I can find the photo he sent...

Yes, he does just sawzall the wheel arches, eyeballs it on a concrete floor, dust everywhere, chain smoking, just using his finger to smooth the silicon sealant. That's sort of what people pay him for.
Your friend did not buy the RWB to go racing, they bought it to take photos of it, and that is ok.
My point was that those modifications are aimed at aesthetics, like a custom motorcycle the path of where it has ended up bears little to what it was influenced by and how its used now.
I find some of the "race inspired" modifications within the 911 scene just stupid as the custom motorcycle stuff and your initial grumble of everyone circling the drain of inspiration holds true. In the same way that you can look at a custom motorbike with a kitkat thick seat with a middle aged man bent over like a dog taking a dump and question how is that an improvement to make it faster? You have everyone sniffing their own farts in the name of fashion are the 911r vented plastic windows. Lighter than glass, but you can't wash the car or park it in the rain. So there are versions that are made without holes.

[BILLY BEAN]

But RWB cars are thrown together with little thought to execution and engineering. Sabre-saw to attack the bodywork, silicon and pop-rivets to glue bits back on – plus absurdly wide wheel spacers to fill out the oversized wings. A friend in Malaysia has one - the rear suspension collapsed at 70mph on the freeway due to the loadings imposed upon it by the use of excessively wide wheel spacers and the heavily offset wheels. I'll see if I can find the photo he sent...

Yes, he does just sawzall the wheel arches, eyeballs it on a concrete floor, dust everywhere, chain smoking, just using his finger to smooth the silicon sealant. That's sort of what people pay him for.
Your friend did not buy the RWB to go racing, they bought it to take photos of it, and that is ok.
My point was that those modifications are aimed at aesthetics, like a custom motorcycle the path of where it has ended up bears little to what it was influenced by and how its used now.
I find some of the "race inspired" modifications within the 911 scene just stupid as the custom motorcycle stuff and your initial grumble of everyone circling the drain of inspiration holds true. In the same way that you can look at a custom motorbike with a kitkat thick seat with a middle aged man bent over like a dog taking a dump and question how is that an improvement to make it faster? You have everyone sniffing their own farts in the name of fashion are the 911r vented plastic windows. Lighter than glass, but you can't wash the car or park it in the rain. So there are versions that are made without holes.

Couple of small points:
The louvres in the picture you used do not appear to have slots in them so you could wash the car ( if you like doing that sort of thing).
And the 'plastic windows' are definately lighter than the standard glass ones.
Why would you possibly want to modify a car just so you can take pictures of it as you suggest? More money than sense being exercised or a perversion of some sort which possibly there should be a law against? Does this mean actually being able to drive it does not figure? Is the RWB just for posing?
As for the aesthetics of the RWB they are of course a matter of taste. However, what is a fundamental in engineering terms, is that the large rear wheels should not compromise safety which clearly they do as the suspension, as designed, was not meant to deal with the loads imposed by the RWB modification. Some may call that reckless or stupid or maybe both of those things.

I am capable of sawing bodywork and with all the tiling I have done over the years can confidently smooth sealant with my index finger. Please form a queue for bodywork mods but make sure you have a big wedge to hand over up front. Free digital camera with the first 20 clients and hints and tips as to how to photograph your new pride and joy.

[matteo68]

Last para -

[anglophone1]

But RWB cars are thrown together with little thought to execution and engineering. Sabre-saw to attack the bodywork, silicon and pop-rivets to glue bits back on – plus absurdly wide wheel spacers to fill out the oversized wings. A friend in Malaysia has one - the rear suspension collapsed at 70mph on the freeway due to the loadings imposed upon it by the use of excessively wide wheel spacers and the heavily offset wheels. I'll see if I can find the photo he sent...

Yes, he does just sawzall the wheel arches, eyeballs it on a concrete floor, dust everywhere, chain smoking, just using his finger to smooth the silicon sealant. That's sort of what people pay him for.
Your friend did not buy the RWB to go racing, they bought it to take photos of it, and that is ok.
My point was that those modifications are aimed at aesthetics, like a custom motorcycle the path of where it has ended up bears little to what it was influenced by and how its used now.
I find some of the "race inspired" modifications within the 911 scene just stupid as the custom motorcycle stuff and your initial grumble of everyone circling the drain of inspiration holds true. In the same way that you can look at a custom motorbike with a kitkat thick seat with a middle aged man bent over like a dog taking a dump and question how is that an improvement to make it faster? You have everyone sniffing their own farts in the name of fashion are the 911r vented plastic windows. Lighter than glass, but you can't wash the car or park it in the rain. So there are versions that are made without holes.

I have "real deal" louvred windows [with drip trays] in Jaffa 911- and it lives in Ireland so rain etc. inevitable - I've never had a problem= The factory knew what they were doing when they dreamed these up!!
Don't understand the fake closed ones at all..................
C

[Bruce M]

Mixed thoughts on RWB.
I’ve always seen Mr RWB as a Stylist and not a tuner. So you are paying for a look, a fashion statement, a personality and an experience.

Being a practical person I can’t rank form above function, to the detriment of function.

On the other hand, Mr Driftworks has a RWB which he has massively re-engineered to be a functional machine but still maintain the form (no overfenders screwed on though)

[RobFrost]

Always baffled me why the cowl on the louvre windows doesn't sit above the louvres to shelter them from the rain. I think someone misread the drawings somewhere along the line there.

Personally I covet the RWB conversions. I know it's a lot of consumerist hype but Akira Nakai gives a great performance as the modern day rock star / artist.

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk

[Sam]

Here you go: https://www.carandclassic.com/car/C1435025

180bhp, improved brakes and suspension. Cost £25k to do. Yours for £20k.

I bet it’s a hoot to wallop along a country Lane.

[sisu]

[quote="BILLY BEAN]

Couple of small points:
The louvres in the picture you used do not appear to have slots in them so you could wash the car ( if you like doing that sort of thing).
And the 'plastic windows' are definately lighter than the standard glass ones.
Why would you possibly want to modify a car just so you can take pictures of it as you suggest? More money than sense being exercised or a perversion of some sort which possibly there should be a law against? Does this mean actually being able to drive it does not figure? Is the RWB just for posing?
As for the aesthetics of the RWB they are of course a matter of taste. However, what is a fundamental in engineering terms, is that the large rear wheels should not compromise safety which clearly they do as the suspension, as designed, was not meant to deal with the loads imposed by the RWB modification. Some may call that reckless or stupid or maybe both of those things.

I am capable of sawing bodywork and with all the tiling I have done over the years can confidently smooth sealant with my index finger. Please form a queue for bodywork mods but make sure you have a big wedge to hand over up front. Free digital camera with the first 20 clients and hints and tips as to how to photograph your new pride and joy.[/quote]

I used that aftermarket 911R example because of what it represents and its application. No question of the weight of plastic vs glass. But you still need to pay $599 for ones with no vents, with the louvred bumps. This is nothing against anyone who has them, I was saying how the journey has gone from function to fashion. I would only understand why you have fake ones only if I know about the original inspiration.

Dismissing the RWB as reckless or stupid and a vacuous self indulgence is a matter of taste, as you say anyone could do it so why pay a grumpy Japanese panel beater? A bit like Banksy painting a wall is just a spray can and a template.
I get why people modify cars, I have screwed up many cars in the pursuit of emulating a look and rationally any Golf R is faster.

[911hillclimber]

All my working life I designed or directed design of safety critical things.
Function over form every time, but people need both if the item is 'visual', ie a gas fire, Good to look at but assumed not to blow up.

To modify a car to an extent that the base components could/might/will fail in a catastrophic way, ie suspension collapse is irresponsible and surely the person who did this is legally liable unless there is a disclaimer; Drive this expensive 150 mph car at your own risk'.
Maybe this premise is UK/EU and not ROTW?

If the person doing the mods has no formal engineering background or experience then things must get even more difficult in the cold light of a court room?

[coomo]

All my working life I designed or directed design of safety critical things.
Function over form every time, but people need both if the item is 'visual', ie a gas fire, Good to look at but assumed not to blow up.

To modify a car to an extent that the base components could/might/will fail in a catastrophic way, ie suspension collapse is irresponsible and surely the person who did this is legally liable unless there is a disclaimer; Drive this expensive 150 mph car at your own risk'.
Maybe this premise is UK/EU and not ROTW?

If the person doing the mods has no formal engineering background or experience then things must get even more difficult in the cold light of a court room?

Im not sure where the "cutoff" point of responsibility lies.Can modifications ever be guaranteed against failure? Not being an expert, on Motor vehicle design,modification and mechanical congruence amongst "upgrades" I will only use well tried and used combinations of performance parts.IE I know a 31mm rear torsion bar, with likely result in a stiffer ride, than a 27mm one.Not from experience, just from feedback of dozens of users.
Which is why experience gained from years of experience is invaluable.
This RWB bloke appears to swerve this concept purely for athetics.Fitting 12 inch wide rims on a 911, is not going to aid performance whatsoever.Just add to rolling weight.
I really dont get the mindset, whereby a customer buys a 911,where performance is compromised so negatively, for image.
I think were back to buying cars to takre pictures off, and post to Instagram.
I have just had a main roll bar bent by a well known roll cage builder.As they havent completed the full cage, the invoice has a disclaimer which in essence states,it offers no more protection, than wet string.Im happy with that.This is how modified or upgraded parts, should be sold.Cars too.I bet RWB doesnt write that on his invoices though..............

[911hillclimber]

Indeed, we make decisions based on many factors, Porsche went from steel trailing arms to alum, cost, weight, maybe strength but they appeared on 'faster' cars, so i fitted them to my 911 in 1993 or so. I trusted that, like a great many others, no probs so far of course.
If I made my own at 1/2 the weight from alum and anodised it to death and blinged it all up with a mirriad of adjustability, then off I went or even sold them untested, but look 'great' then I would be most worried.

Some would buy them for the look but assume they function too.
And how do you test them? To what limit do you test them too?
Enter the vast team of Porsche engineers and other large manufacturers, and the library of British Standards you need to read and act on.

It doesn't happen, just 'If it looks right it probably is right'
Won't cut it in court when someone is injured or dead.

A mate of mine built a hot rod years ago when I did too.
Used a Jaguar Mk10 rear suspension which is very very wide track.

Decided to cut the lower arms an drive shafts down to narrow the rear track.
The drive shafts are essentially the upper wishbones on that Jaguar design.

Scooting down the road the welds he made failed on one side, and he stopped the car using the side of a house with people watching TV at the time.
This was in the late 70's when things were far liberal, but today? The police would be all over you, the house owners too, and not an insurance man in sight.

He (much) later built his own plane, to plans, correct materials and work checked at correct steps, lovely thing.

We have flown to Wales etc in it, fab machine. Mad to simply cut-n-shut on safety critical items esp when you can embroil others in the consequences.

Not sure any of my ramblings are relevant to KS's first post, sorry in advance.

I used to be Director of Product Design so if things went wrong, the buck stopped with me, maybe why I worry a lot!!

[coomo]

Indeed, we make decisions based on many factors, Porsche went from steel trailing arms to alum, cost, weight, maybe strength but they appeared on 'faster' cars, so i fitted them to my 911 in 1993 or so. I trusted that, like a great many others, no probs so far of course.
If I made my own at 1/2 the weight from alum and anodised it to death and blinged it all up with a mirriad of adjustability, then off I went or even sold them untested, but look 'great' then I would be most worried.

Some would buy them for the look but assume they function too.
And how do you test them? To what limit do you test them too?
Enter the vast team of Porsche engineers and other large manufacturers, and the library of British Standards you need to read and act on.

It doesn't happen, just 'If it looks right it probably is right'
Won't cut it in court when someone is injured or dead.

A mate of mine built a hot rod years ago when I did too.
Used a Jaguar Mk10 rear suspension which is very very wide track.

Decided to cut the lower arms an drive shafts down to narrow the rear track.
The drive shafts are essentially the upper wishbones on that Jaguar design.

Scooting down the road the welds he made failed on one side, and he stopped the car using the side of a house with people watching TV at the time.
This was in the late 70's when things were far liberal, but today? The police would be all over you, the house owners too, and not an insurance man in sight.

He (much) later built his own plane, to plans, correct materials and work checked at correct steps, lovely thing.

We have flown to Wales etc in it, fab machine. Mad to simply cut-n-shut on safety critical items esp when you can embroil others in the consequences.

Not sure any of my ramblings are relevant to KS's first post, sorry in advance.

I used to be Director of Product Design so if things went wrong, the buck stopped with me, maybe why I worry a lot!!

Great Post!