New MOT legislation and more...

[amallagh]

Halleluiah

[gridgway]

But there is still the point that KS pointed out. That letter says substantially changed, just like the comms to Graham.

If I understood, the problem is 'radically changed'. And being forced to declare it and then face biva.

Graham

[amallagh]

How can you get anything more modified than a Beech Buggy ? Bespoke body and modified chassis.

They are saying that they don't intend to use the 8 point system and are implying that any new system would not classify a Beech Buggy with a modified chassis as radically changed.
I'd say that is a fairly positive indicator regarding what they will eventually come up with.

[smallspeed]

How can you get anything more modified than a Beech Buggy ? Bespoke body and modified chassis

This is good news, but I totally agree - a beach buggy (or 356 rep) is effectively a cut and shut in a party dress, so if they're OK with that hopefully a meagre 14pt welded in cage through both bulkheads or a RHD conversion should be a piece of cake

[KS]

I wondered how long before this showed up on here. People are getting all excited about nothing – this has no relevance to the matter of DVLA registration/IVA etc.

This letter is purely in relation to what defines whether a car needs an MOT or not. Any car modified outside the 8-point rule will still need an MOT AND have to undergo BIVA or IVA. Unfortunately, people are posting this everywhere on Facebook saying it's the end of the BIVA or IVA requirement. It isn't.

The information in this letter was all included in the original consultation document.

Put simply, as stated, a SWB Buggy will need to be MOT'd. It will also (separate subject, and a DVLA/DVSA matter) be required to undergo BIVA. A long-wheelbase buggy is treated as a 'rebody' and does not have to go through all this, as long as the other requirements of the 8-point ruling are met.

[gridgway]

So the long awaited November paper will only clarify the new mot position with regard to VHIs.

KS do you know what/when/how the changes re the radically modified vehicles and biva will be announced or put in place?

Graham

[KS]

There's no given date for any further announcements. But it is worth reminding ourselves that in terms of vehicles requiring BIVA, etc, nothing has changed – the clearly-defined 8-point ruling has been in place for years, just not strictly policed.

[911hillclimber]

Far far too many ups-n-downs on this subject.
There will only be clarity when the DVLA actually publish the Guidance Document on their web site.

I will not believe any source in a magazine, letters from the DfT, emails from the DVLA and even letters from my MP in response to this subject, ever.

I feel nobody knows the final outcome, or the communications are economical with words, or written to miss-lead and miss-inform because they are in complete and dodging the real issue.

My only interest is what changes to a car constitutes modified, substantially modified and radically modified.
The only fact I can find is the RHD conversion on my car is Radical due to body changes. Nothing says "RHD conversions are Radical", or weld-in cages are radical or braced jacking points are or sun roof deletes are etc etc

A Beach Buggy must be Radical, so BIVA test/pass for him, a Q plate and an MoT required every year. My RHD conversion is in the same position as far as I can read on the DVLA site (8 point system)

I was discussing all this a few days ago with a Reliant Scimitar owner and Club member.
They are well wound-up about the whole thing as some have been advised Q plate for a Reliant with a replacement galvanised chassis.
He also asked what about the USA Healey's converted to RHD, and the Spyder chassis' fitted my many to Elans.

I can only hope the Federation can talk sense but I really am not confident it will change my situation at all.

This subject is banned in my house!

My radically modified 911 looks so innocent...

Is a RHD change REALLY radical?
It took me a week of part time work in my garage. Elongating the loom 1000mm took the most time.
The BIVA does not check the quality of the job I did, the MoT does not either!

[gridgway]

Just a frustrating game of wait and see. It feels to me like all we'll get any time soon are the guidelines for the MOT ruling.

The tightening up on the 8 point rule and biva will remain a closely guarded secret until it's revealed!

Mystic-Graham

[911hillclimber]

It all has to be defined by May 2018 when 'The Question' will be asked of everyone taxing a vehicle older than 40 years (or there-abouts)

Does your vehicle qualify for Tax and MoT exemption: or such words.
To answer that you can lie, or if you have no idea, refer to the Guidelines which will have to be linked in the on-line system so you can make the correct call.(ie is the vehicle radically modified etc)
Hell will break loose then.

All this assumes you actually know if the vehicle has been modified since 1988. A seller may not have declared it to the buyer and the buy /owner is then ignorant and will possibly say Yes and be telling a lie.

Ignorance is no excuse in Law.(?)

Anyway, I recon I need E marked glass, a rear fog light, better wing mirror, a stock steering wheel, remove the roll cage, cap all internal bolt heads and nuts inside the car, sandpaper down any radius on switches outside the greater wheel diameter 'zone'. Maybe a few other things for the BIVA, oh, and a cheque for £450 and 2 new number plates and reduce the Agreed Value of the car by 60%

Notice nothing about if the RHD conversion is good or not. BIVA is not about structural safety.
And people here wonder why I'm miffed-off about it all and I should not be negative!

[gridgway]

So I'm just wondering where that is stated? I know it's what we discussed, but can't recall whether it was supposition or fact!

It all has to be defined by May 2018 when 'The Question' will be asked of everyone taxing a vehicle older than 40 years (or there-abouts)

Does your vehicle qualify for Tax and MoT exemption: or such words.

[KS]

On the subject of replacement chassis (Elan, Reliant etc), that is allowed IF it is an exact replacement – not modified in anyway from original factory spec. The matter of self disclosure has come up in various dialogues. But we probably won't know the full score until early next year, closer to the May date.

[majordad]

What is the DUP position on the proposed rules, better check with Arlene Foster before doing the deal !

( I hope this will be seen as a joke as intended and not a political comment ). My point would be that the UK Government has a lot more matters to sort other than old cars.

Did you say you converted yours to Right Wing drive ?

[amallagh]

Hello Keith, I've read the letter again having read your comments made after it, and whilst accepting that it does not say what exactly will be done, it does however appear to me to give a rather more optimistic outlook than you are saying.

As I understand it your premise has been that once a vehicle is defined as substantially modified then it WILL loose its VHI status automatically when it is next taxed, and therefore HAVE to undergo BIVA or IVA to get a registration back that will then be on a new Q plate.

 this has no relevance to the matter of DVLA registration/IVA etc. .

I must be missing something as the letter implies to me that a Beech Buggy that is substantially modified may still keep its VHI status. If it keeps its VHI status then it must therefore still be registered.

This letter is purely in relation to what defines whether a car needs an MOT or not..

Quote from the letter - 'You ask how the VHI criteria will affect a beech buggy with a modified chassis'
The letter is asking about VHI status, not MOT requirements per say. The MOT is only mentioned at the very end of the letter by the gentleman from DoT in reference to the only change that will affect an existing VHI that is substantially modified (specifically referring to the Beech Buggy)

Any car modified outside the 8-point rule will still need an MOT AND have to undergo BIVA or IVA.

Quote from letter - 'I should say that we are no longer planning to use the DVLAs 8 point rule for determining whether a modified vehicle is 'substantially changed'
Being optimistic I would imply from this that the criterion for defining substantially modified will be somewhat more flexible than the 8 point rule. It doesn't say this specifically I grant you, but it is implied by the context of the letter in answering the enquirers concern/question in relation to his Beech Buggy with VHI status.

For our hot rod early 911S then I think this is the crucial point as it implies that our cars will not be judged by the rather restrictive 8 point rule for determining in they are substantially changed in relation to VHI status.
If they are not substantially changed then my reading is that they can keep their existing VHI status and hence their existing registration. May still require an MOT but I think it is rather ridiculous that they have proposed to eliminate this for VHIs in any case.

In relation to these points specifically, then what am I missing ?

Regards
Andrew
(ps no offence meant or implied. I'm just struggling to see why this letter does not warrant a more optimistic outlook. As everyone has said, we won't know until we see the guidance, but I see this letter as relatively positive compared to the interpretation that I think you have suggested and I think I have simplified in the 2nd paragraph of this message based on what I've read on this string)

[911hillclimber]

The Beach Buggy letter is similar to the one I Was sent via my local MP from the DfT, the last para is almost the same As mine.
My letter came from a different person in the DfT.

I would like to be optimistic, but I've been dissapointed too many times.
I feel I could find I have a car without a registration at the end of all this, so passionate about the subject.

If the DVLA drop the 8 point system for CLASSIC cars then this is potentially very good for me.
What the Federation will suggest as a substitute worries me only because I have no idea what they have in mind as a proposal. Fear of the Unknown!

I still think the best outcome for classics is if modified then it's an MoT for ever.
I think this is a simple and effective result and keeps us modified boys honest by the annual check, but dropping the MoT is a fools action IMHO.

May is a long way away!
Andrew, Ihope we can all be rested over this ASAP.