70 S, RHD, Signal Orange, UK->Australia->UK

[hot66]

Nice sum up Barry

[inaglasshouse]

Hi Barry, thanks for the summary.

So it's not all bad .

Indeed not.
The other obvious point is that, depending on exactly what you are restoring, I think the man maths is better on these cars than on many / most.
Yes, panels cost. As do engine parts.
But with proper specialists like Barry charging £40 per hour, labour costs remain eminently reasonable, and probably not far from what you'd pay for equivalent work on, say, an MGB or a 105 Alfa.

Man maths follows:
In my case it's a matching numbers RHD 2.2S. Base car cost me £36,500 including shipping and import duty. And so far I've spent £31,691 on the resto. Still a long way to go, of course, but in total I doubt the resto costs will be over 90. Have I lost money? I don't think so - I reckon the final value of the car is in the right ballpark to break even, should I need to sell at the end. Have I made money? Doubt it!

Overall it's my view that a full resto of an early 911, done professionally except easy stuff (project management, parts sourcing, electrics, assembly) is not financial madness. Unless you charge your own time at what you could be earning in your day job!
And it is very satisfying.

Cheers, Richard.

[Bootsy]

Thanks to you both for sharing the costs to date - really insightful and seldom seen

[yoda]

Yes, thank you both for your candid responses. Very helpful.

[911hillclimber]

Indeed.
As a keen diy with cars I don't shy away from the body stuff and did mine in '88.
I think today my shell would be seen as really good except....

You can see all my repairs to the inner body. They are sound, never failed an MoT with them and the outer repairs can be found if you get close.
My NS wing is gas welded together using 3 wings. The guy about to paint it could not tell.

So, DIY but not invisible (in my skill-set) and that is something I have to put up with esp when today you see the likes of a 'Barry Shell'; the height of the jump is now very high.

Unless you are very good, DIY will be a big compromise, esp if the car is worth something.

In some ways mine is not which makes it easier to swallow the flaws. This car's purchase price and the subsequent metalwork has cost far more than my hot rod is worth!

Long live those who can use specialists like Barry and the cars that materialise at the end.
Great that we see the background story.

[Darren65]

Glorious shell Richard, truly glorious.....congrats

I've said it once or twice before but the funds I invested with Barry was truly the best money I ever spent, period......also the nicest specialist you could ever hope to meet.

Lucky you for being able to go again.....please keep the posts coming, love these threads and they're very much appreciated.

Cheers,

[lamakdaddy]

Well, it looks great! I am very much looking forward to seeing it in paint as I think it is hard to beat the aesthetic quality of a freshly restored, particularly in orange!

Sadly, I might never do my own as the costs seem to be only going one way. Great work thought and lovely to see that craftsmanship like that still exists.

Regards

Feroz

The rising costs are from panels, which have gone up hugely in last couple of years. My own labour rate (£40, no VAT) has been the same for last four years, and if it does go up, it won't be by much. I'm not sure if others have been ramping their prices, probably not recently. Those on a budget can do quite well by dealing with much of the stripping themselves, sometimes using the panels like a savings scheme well in advance, keeping an eye on Euro's deals and eBay / For sale ads etc.

Having said about panels, the flip side is that more and more repair parts are hitting the market, which makes it more viable to save the originals. Also, from my own point of view, I retain my collection of around 70 special tools / hammerforms and whatnot for making panels. Therefore much can be done to retain an otherwise good original area.

If you are lucky enough to have good outer panels, roof included, I would venture that the resto costs from me for example are the same as in 2013 (last price rise) inner panel price differences excepted. The positive against that is there's currently more choice on floors. sills, kidney bowls etc.

I think it's also important to compare apples to apples, and not to pears. Body restoration hours on their own don't tell the full story. Someone can easily trim the hours a bit if they've asked for a huge number of new panels from the customer. Obviously if there has been work involved in saving a £1500 panel, there's likely to be a labour cost there. Seen in isolation, this added labour might look a lot. But, assuming you've been able to save two front inner wings (what, £1550 each), and two rear innner wings (NLA, but were over £1000 each), perhaps a couple of A-posts (another £300 each), front scuttle ends (£1800 for new scuttle saved) and so on, the benefits really tot up. A pub conversation might just touch on the labour (How much?!?), and then forget to mention the £'000's in panel savings.

Anyway, just my t'pennies worth. You often hear the labour bit, but it's only when taken with panel costs can you really assess the fairness or otherwise of a specialist's bill.

For all that, yes, this is not a cheap interest at all, and it's a significant commitment to take on. I do maintain though, that by making sensible choices, heeding experienced advice, use as much DIY as you can and spreading the work out, you can still keep things relatively sensible. I always say that it's sometimes a good idea to split things into two groups on a resto. 1) Stuff you really, really don't want to be revisiting, or will cause damage not to be done straight away, so body, paint, cavity waxing, loom, oil lines / coolers, brake and pipe lines, safety items (steering / suspension / brakes) and so on. 2) Mechanicals that can be back out within half a day, interior (headlining aside), lights, possibly instruments and so on. This way you can split the work into two major phases. Phase one gets the car solid, save, dry, drivable and pretty smart and a cracking, long lasting foundation. Phase two can be done on a rolling resto basis as budget and time dicate. It's how I would do it anyway.

The DIY'ers have never had it so good either. All of these new repair panels move more cars towards realistic DIY propositions, for those with the time, skills and dedication to keep the project moving forward.

So it's not all bad .

Barry..thanks for being so transparent. Your labour rate is extremely fair - especially given the end result! If you every fancy living and working in a sunny sandpit with no taxes then PM me!

[Dougieboy1]

Richard, if you dont mind me asking, who is doing your painting?

[inaglasshouse]

Richard, if you dont mind me asking, who is doing your painting?

One of the usual suspects. DC, near Barry.
They have done a fair few Barry shells, so Mr Carter's experience is valuable - I'm sure you can ask him what he thinks.
My experience has very little value - not started yet!

[inaglasshouse]

As well as having some early 911 experience, DC seems to do a fair bit of work for well-known Ferrari and Jaguar restorers.

A few Jag pics that Steve (at DC) shared with me:

[inaglasshouse]

Ferraris:







My personal favourite:

[PMNorris]

Wow, they all look amazing. I know who i'll be calling when i get my car respayed.

[210bhp]

Plus, Steve is a very nice guy to discuss and get along with.

Regards
Mike

[murph2309]

Indeed.
As a keen diy with cars I don't shy away from the body stuff and did mine in '88.
I think today my shell would be seen as really good except....

You can see all my repairs to the inner body. They are sound, never failed an MoT with them and the outer repairs can be found if you get close.
My NS wing is gas welded together using 3 wings. The guy about to paint it could not tell.

So, DIY but not invisible (in my skill-set) and that is something I have to put up with esp when today you see the likes of a 'Barry Shell'; the height of the jump is now very high.

Unless you are very good, DIY will be a big compromise, esp if the car is worth something.

In some ways mine is not which makes it easier to swallow the flaws. This car's purchase price and the subsequent metalwork has cost far more than my hot rod is worth!

Long live those who can use specialists like Barry and the cars that materialise at the end.
Great that we see the background story.

I think it's been said before - it's horses for courses on restos. I don't think anyone should feel good or bad for whichever route they took - as long as it works for them.

Let's stop comparing the prices of what it's worth and how much money has been put into this car or that. It really doesn't matter. You either want to and can or you don't want to and don't.

Endless comparisons between completely different projects really doesn't add to the overall knowledge base.

Some like it one way, some another. Some can one way, some can't another. Nobody needs to justify their own preference / choice / route. Respect does not come from the amount of money put into the project. Or the professionals or DIY'ers involved. It comes from the passion. And the care. Whatever the spend level.

So lets enjoy each project on merit, celebrate the efforts that are being put in by all involved and not endlessly cross compare eh?

Rant over.

R

PS, I love this project. Great progress Apols for hijack.....

[inaglasshouse]

Nobody needs to justify their own preference / choice / route. Respect does not come from the amount of money put into the project. Or the professionals or DIY'ers involved.
So lets enjoy each project on merit, celebrate the efforts that are being put in by all involved and not endlessly cross compare eh?

Hi Richard,

Agreed. I have absolute respect (and slight envy) for those with the skills and dedication to do everything hands-on. And indeed respect for the alternative skills of those who have made the odd 100 million and phone in their resto instructions from their yacht. All fine for me, as long as the cars survive, we get to enjoy them first hand and vicariously, and there's a DDK thread with lots of photos!

I'm sorry if the mention of money has had a negative effect. Not intended to make anyone, whether they have spent half my cost or twice that, feel bad. Or indeed feel good! I'm not saying I've done this the best way or even competently - the spend is just a fact, which I hope others find useful in finding the way they want to do a resto.

Cheers, Richard.