DDK - Die Deutschen Klassiker

Agree with the Porsche Tax comment!

Can someone actually provide evidence that a 911 is more difficult to restore than an MGB?

Body wise it's not, it's just simple steel construction, very similar. But more parts are available and cheaper, and doesn't come with Porsche tax!

A very good thread this, and valuable conversation.

My 911 I self painted and the whole metal-up repaint DIY ina garage took 3 weeks part time. I had a very busy overseas travel job and a 3 year old at the time too.

The car looked ok then, Bob Watson was impressed iirc. These cars then (esp a bitza like mine) was worth about £5K tops. (1989)

Today literally I am considering a full glass-out/bare metal re paint with the prep and paint done at DC Customs (as in 356 paint on here) as they are 7 miles away from me.

Is this worth it though as the anodised window surrounds are 'grazed' and all that has been said above applies to the body.
Seals were new in '89 from OPC and would need to be cut to get the glass out.

The external condition or patina is all 'in-tune' with itself and the tub is sound though 'DIY' welded and not to Barry standards, but is it really worth the effort?
I'm waiting for an estimate to arrive, but so tempted to DIY it again next summer in a plastic tent like our Aussie friend has in Projects.

The suspension needs the most tlc and a real set-up done so the money may be better spent on that and keep driving it.
As an aside, since buying it in '88 for £3K and having spent about £12k on it in total it owes me little and might be worth £35K to someone as it is.

I think this thread has convinced me to leave the outside, do the important bits and here's to the next 25 years with it and my son in law can fix it up if there is any petrol left.

I have restored 2 MGB's, one a roaster, other my own GT.
They are remarkably the same body design and have all the same issues for rust, alignment but the cost is considerably cheaper, esp DIY as the finished car is worth so much less.
Porsche parts are rarely Porsche tooled, same with MGB except the Heritage shells are close to the real thing and really well made (and dipped etc). Look how cheap they are!

As to race cars, there is zero comparison to be made.

Race cars are stupid, addictive and a waste of sensible money, and anyone who has really done it will agree; but just try putting it down...

The one on the left has cost 2 x more in 8 years than the one on the right has in 26, and is worth 1/2 as much.



For interest, here is an MGB being done. If you know the rusted/repaired 911 you will see parallels.

Ive got a workshop.Nice and big.I used to be a trader,till it all went wonky few years ago.However, I cut my gib on body/paint work.Ive just finished my 2nd(car) 911 "rusty" bits rebuild.The usual kidneys, B posts sill.This stuff aint rocket science.You do Need a tad of ability with tools but not too difficult.
I sat and stared, took loads of measurements,before I began cutting.Took about a week, to get both side done.Not including priming.
In fact yesterdays work was tigging back on lower rear quarter, getting it straight and in filler.That took best part of a day.It would have taken the same irrespective of the car though!
It still suprises me how long stuff takes to do.My last project (924 turbo in resto threads) was far simplier body wise.Sills were great,stuck a camera and had a look that was it.Two or three minor welds on floor.Compared to a 911,a breeze.911s have horrid rust traps,the 924 not so.Come resto time, its very evident.
Re Paintwork.The "I dont want it mint" is a real misnomer.Any painter, who agrees to do a less than excellent job just walk away.
I prep my cars.Then they are sent to my painter, simply because he has an oven and i dont.Modern paint systems, are very forgiving if you know how to exploit them.Whether its a Porsche or a Polo,Rage hard against the tax!

coolaking wrote:4) Paint - a good job will take 200+ hours commercially

Does it take 200+ hours for paint on a 911

.It does really depend on what "paint" entails.Lets assume car is welded, panelled and gapped correctly.Doors,bonnet lid bumpers etc all off.Shell is bare, wings fitted.
Perhaps a day to seal seams.Repair any dents etc.Etch prime.Next day prime, and guide coat.flat,reapply primer, then Underseal.Flat and leave few days(longer if possible.)That would be two experienced guys working on it.
Mask,apply base coat and laquer.leave few days flat polish.About 2/3 weeks work.Assuming 5 days @ 8 hours.From 3-15k depending on where you go.I charge about 6k,if friends want it done.

Great, some real-world stuff there, and your 924 was great!

That time sequence was about the same as mine but my standards were my own, not that pf a pro shop.

The pro painter can 'afford' to do the very best as someone else is paying, but the customer can expect the best then.

I have not found a painter who will only apply the top coat, so I think you are always in for the bare-metal up job.

hot66 wrote: but Graham , no one really in the right mind would spunk loads of cash on racing cars either .. plenty do though , because as you know none of us are 'right minded'

Very good point James, I'll get me coat! Talking of spunking loads of cash, go to about 3mins in to miss the dull warming up lap. That'll need quite a lot of t-cut... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnHXZZKU-Jg

And that's why I don't do circuit racing.

Just had a call from the body shop to paint my 911:

196 hours + materials + vat.
Oddly, the wife thinks it should be done. At least I have until early May to get used to it.

That is the biggest one-off payment to maintain a car I've ever had in my life. Trying to get to terms with it.

DIY? £1000 for 1/2 of the quality.

I disagree with Hill climber regarding Porsche shells being nothing special. To retain value they need to be correctly restored by someone familiar with early Porsche shells and specific knowledge of variations evident in different production series. Correct repair may mean " back dating" new panels and or making repair sections. Should the outer sills be toast then there is a good chance the intermediate sills will need attention along with kidney bowls and "A" post supports. To do this without putting the shell back on a jig is taking a risk as these are major structural components. In addition a poorly aligned shell will lead to issues with outer panels not fitting well. Panel gaps and panel surface alignment, in my experience, are difficult to get right without appropriate expertise. With regards to cost: Stretch is being an optimist as he has just been on holiday and despite his rebuild experience. Do not start a rebuild unless you have very deep financial resources, have a durable character and have great deal of patience. It helps also if you are single.
Regards
Kirk

Just a comparison on material costs, 911 v MGB

Sill, one side, 3 long sections, inner/outer/base: £136 /side
Front wing, factory tooled: £435
Front wing pattern: £240

Other pars follow the same pattern.

Billy; Yes, back dating panels, filling features (ie 911/964 outer sills etc) all to be done, but my comments are for a 'hotrod/bitza car like mine. If the tank support has a wrong feature then I doubt I will loose much by it, on one of (say) Darren's cars it will mean the world in car value and his satisfaction and that comes at a cost.
If my shell was restored to an accurate 73T it's value in that will be lost due to non-matching numbers and all the rest let alone the RHD conversion (which used some Porsche panels at the time you could get them).

My car is a LHD '73T, 3.2 engine/box DIY converted to RHD and lots of other parts off different years, none original interior etc and the non original colour. Non original wheels and the list goes on.

I imagine my car is 25% at best of the value of top-end DDK rebuilds.

Let's not loose sight that some want their cars to be safe and presentable, some would like theirs to be better than new, and, add some love to DIY the car. Others cannot but have a budget to have it done, nothing wrong with either approach, but I doubt the keen DIY'r can achieve the perfection of the "£100K" restorations. I certainly cannot do that but have something ok for me via DIY.

My point is with a modicum of car restoration skills, some good tools a good result can be achieved still at some cost for a good deal less than the pro shop approach.

Way back I replaced sills, part floors door skins and all wings and repaired torsion bar areas with the engine out, tank support pan etc, no jigs, lots of measurements and spirit levels and the factory manual body drg with the dimensions.

6 years later I crashed the car competing and it went on a cellet jig to pull the NS front corner out. done, the body man commented on how straight the car was and the pull was very easy to get the front back, and all the restoration welds were good and complete.

If you don't have the time, you need the budget esp at £50+ vat /hour. £2800, for every week a man works on the car. For me that is a big incentive to DIY as much as possible if you can.

911hillclimber wrote:Great, some real-world stuff there, and your 924 was great!

That time sequence was about the same as mine but my standards were my own, not that pf a pro shop.

The pro painter can 'afford' to do the very best as someone else is paying, but the customer can expect the best then.

I have not found a painter who will only apply the top coat, so I think you are always in for the bare-metal up job.

Thanks for the comment.Most decent painters wont just apply colour coats.Rightly so.If a reaction occurs, sinkage etc, then invariably the painter will be blamed.My set up is totally different.My painter is employed to apply paint and cook it nothing else.If anything goes awry with the finish, except contamination and reaction etc.Its my problem.I know what is required, to achieve an A1 finish,so does my painter.Both of us doing it correctly achieves this.
Apart from when he has his yearly " stress meltdown" and the phone goes dead for a few weeks!

BILLY BEAN wrote:I disagree with Hill climber regarding Porsche shells being nothing special. To retain value they need to be correctly restored by someone familiar with early Porsche shells and specific knowledge of variations evident in different production series. Correct repair may mean " back dating" new panels and or making repair sections. Should the outer sills be toast then there is a good chance the intermediate sills will need attention along with kidney bowls and "A" post supports. To do this without putting the shell back on a jig is taking a risk as these are major structural components. In addition a poorly aligned shell will lead to issues with outer panels not fitting well. Panel gaps and panel surface alignment, in my experience, are difficult to get right without appropriate expertise. With regards to cost: Stretch is being an optimist as he has just been on holiday and despite his rebuild experience. Do not start a rebuild unless you have very deep financial resources, have a durable character and have great deal of patience. It helps also if you are single.
Regards
Kirk

There are many specialists who dont jig 911 shells, for inner/outer/B post repairs Some who post here say its not required.I brace mine, as a precaution.If transmission is out,I dont forsee an issue.I stand to be corrected.

Indeed, you need to get the shell 'balanced' with the engine/box out and the suspension off if you are poking about looking for rust!
I've seen builders laser alignment tools used recently to ascertain a level/centre.
I used a builder plumb bob to drop some location spots onto the good level floor once the shell was balanced and before work started with hammer and chisels etc to check the shell against the factory drawing which I had to hand.

The Peter Morgan book was my other bible, the days BEFORE the internet! It is all there and was a god-send that book.

Lot of work and some highs and lows but 9 months of my part time welding got it done.

There are many specialists who dont jig 911 shells, for inner/outer/B post repairs

"specialist" is probably the wrong descriptor