RS rep to RSR rep

[squirdan]

i am obviously biaised on this as am using 7 front and 9 rears on my RSR rep for that very reason.... the phrase "it drove like a streamroller" was used by someone who had driven an RSR rep on 11 rears which was subsequently fitted with narrower wheels and "transformed". looks wise the answer is spacers

[Lightweight_911]

Car looks great Dougie - nice engine too !

Any shots of the interior ?

[brembo]

No wonder you got a rubbish bodywork job if you had it done by a joiner

Could probably have made a better job of it from wood
By the way, your 930 hubs should be fitted soon.
Regards,

[brembo]

Do these RSR's run well on the UK roads with the wide rims that were really meant for racers, or do they wander around a bit?

I'd be interested to know that too. There's plenty of modern cars rolling around on similar width rubber though

Sorry lads,don't know the answer yet, haven't had much of a chance to drive it,since conversion works started.
Regards,

[brembo]

Car looks great Dougie - nice engine too !

Any shots of the interior ?

Thanks Andy,here's a couple of photo's of dash-


Sorry,there not very good, will post better ones once I get car back.
Regards,

[sladey]

Interior looks cool - is your Rev Counter on a bit wonky?

[brembo]

Interior looks cool - is your Rev Counter on a bit wonky?

Touch of the James May there Sladey
Regards,

[964RS]

Do these RSR's run well on the UK roads with the wide rims that were really meant for racers, or do they wander around a bit?

I'd be interested to know that too. There's plenty of modern cars rolling around on similar width rubber though

Sorry lads,don't know the answer yet, haven't had much of a chance to drive it,since conversion works started.
Regards,

Mine is what I would call PLANTED

I also think its a matter of what suspension set up and the right tyres. My old 944 handled like a shed on the wrong tyres and my GT3 on pirelli's tramlined really badly.

The RSR on TB15's though......oh yeah

[964RS]

Car is now with Mike Bainbridge, having engine fitted.The engine was rebuilt by Ernest Schlaepfer,the same guy that built this 962- http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2694313.htm.
The engine is a 2.8 rsr spec,built on unnumbered new old stock 7r mag cases.There are also quite a few original rsr parts on this build, high throttle bodies,centre lube mag cam covers and centre lube rsr cams,large port correct rsr heads,grenade full race oilfilter. Mahle rsr pistons and cylinders and Carrillo rods.

Mike has changed the existing pivots on the throttle shaft for original high butterfly linkage towers,also fitted wire holders to plug cables.
Will post photo's of installation later.
Regards,

That engine sounds utter rubbish.

And I think you know that too.

Its really not suited to your driving and you won't like it.

I tell you what I'll bring some cash round now and relieve you of what you know is a big mistake and going to be a huge regret.

I'm happy to take the pain for you







Sounds very

[Mike]

Do these RSR's run well on the UK roads with the wide rims that were really meant for racers, or do they wander around a bit?

... the phrase "it drove like a streamroller" was used by someone who had driven an RSR rep on 11 rears which was subsequently fitted with narrower wheels and "transformed". looks wise the answer is spacers

I hope Dougie doesn't mind my coming on to address the original question about the way an RSR drives, I don't want to detract from his fantastic thread on a great car.
I have to just pick up however on Dan's friend's observation about the car he drove driving like a steamroller, which probably say's more about Dan's friend or that
particular car than RSR's generally!

What you have to remember is that the RSR is a racing car, it's suspension and geometrey has been specifically modified to run with the wide wheels with the sole intention
of getting it around corners quickly, and with the homologated addition of coilovers it was very successful at this. Like any racing car the way it handles depends on how well
it's set up, and like any car using the wrong or worn parts it will always handle like a pig.

The best way I know how to describe how it should feel, is to use the reason I wanted to build one, and that stems from a conversion I had 5 years ago with a very
experienced ex-RSR racer. For 12 years I had been driving my RS lightweight rep and understood totally when people said the RS is the ultimate drivers car, Josh Sadler had
said mine was one of the best handling he had ever driven, better than many real ones, it's the lightness of the front at speed, the nimbleness it has on tiptoes through high
speed corners, the responsiveness of the mfi, all go to make it such an incredible drive. So I asked the RSR racer what the difference is between the RS and the RSR and his
quote was " it does everything exactly the same.....only a hell of a lot quicker!" He went on to explain, "take that roundabout you flick through on your favorite Sunday
morning drive, maybe you're on the limit at 30 the RSR will do it at say 45, that great sweeping corner you run round at 60 the RSR will do it at 85, than when your flat at
150, the RSR will go by at 170"

Obviously you have to be on track to experience that kind of phenomenal performance but you get the point, the lightness at top speed is all there even with the big wide
tyres as per the original question, but you have to going an awful lot quicker than you are used to to exploit it and get into that same kind of zone.

Just to finish I do worry about the RSR rep that compromises on the wheels and tyres, it's such an integral part of the car so why leave them off, if you want the wide body
look but on 9's do an ST. Dan's friend in the "steamroller" even if the car was well set up, obviously never went anywhere near where the car operates at best, by putting on
the narrower wheels he "transformed" it because the limits were much lower, more to what he was used to, a bit like saying an RS is too quick for me I'm happier with a 'T'

As for putting on spacers to make up the difference between a 9 and an 11 there is a serious concern here, the RSR ran a larger wheel bearing to take the load of the 11,
a correctly set up rear suspension with 11's on with well adjusted standard bearings should be fine as long as you keep your eye on them, but a car with the track of 11's
but accomplished by using 9's and 4 inches of spacers is inherently flawed. You have to imagine the vertical axis through the hub, and how that relates to the contact patch
of the tyre on the ground. On a 11 it's pretty much central, fit the 9 and a 2 inch spacer you effectively move the 2 inches smaller point of contact 2 inches further out from
that vertical axis, with the result of over-stressing the bearing and potentially having a failure, and you will not be able to set the geometry correctly so the rear end will
always be compromised.

I'm sorry for the long winded post, but I hope it goes a way to trying to explain the myth of these very special car's. Of course it also takes a very special driver to explore
the limits of them, and that's where it all falls apart for me......... because I'm crap!

All IMHO of course!

[210bhp]

I am late to this thread but I think your car looks great Dougie.

Mike's pointers throw up something which I have thought about many times. The limitation to all our efforts to own and drive these cars and explore their full potential is the very poor driver skills (me included) at speed. No one is going to explore the outer envelope of a very valuable car on public roads and a track day to me is a bit like a bunch of amateurs having 'a thrash'. There are some skilled drivers on here who are an exception. These are the guys who I always want to 'move over for' on a track day.

I would like to learn from an expert RS or RSR driver (not a single seated expert or a touring car expert) on a track. Someone who is familiar with 'our' cars. I have no idea what the limit of my car is. I would like to be shown...... progressively. It would be great to be taken out as a passenger in a well set up RS or RSR and then in my own car to be driver educated. I think it would make for a safer driving experience on the road. Perhaps your friend Mike would 'come out of retirement' for the ultimate track experience?

I am constantly reminded by Hot 66's footnote which seems very appropriate

It's not how fast you drive, but how you drive fast.

Regards
Mike

[brembo]

Totally agree with Mike on this.
If your building a rep of any description, Imo, you should try and get as close as you can to the original,be it an r,rs, rsr or st.Obviously this can take a long time and compromises have to be made,ie original parts no longer available,or to expensive.You can also have some parts re-manufactured,(this is where guys like Mike Bainbridge come into their own,with the vast knowledge and experience they have) .If you can get your car somewhere near to handling the way the original cars drove,again,it would all be worth it.
I to will never have the skills to drive these cars to their limit,but even to get close to the feeling the guys got back in the seventies would make me a very happy individual.
Regards,

[rvzz]

My car is on 11's and 9's and was until recently running ancient Yoko's . Invested last week in a full set of Michelin TB's and had the geometry set up .


Only done a few miles but it feels like a different car .
The comment on bearing size has got me thinking though .
( My car is a 85 3.2 back date mongrel , I don't consider it an RSR rep. )
cheers...

[911hillclimber]

Thanks for all those thoughts, most enlightening!
Would ask more, but not on this thread.

[squirdan]

a very interesting discussion here - and, not to detract from your thread Dougie because your car looks excellent and I am a big fan of the RSR

i dont think there is any "right" answer on the wheels, I can only go off what people have told me. The steamroller comment was from Tuthills who know a thing or to about performance driving 911's and also have a set of original 11's in stock I'm sure they would be happy to sell me!

Other 911 experts that frequent DDK have often made mention of cars being "overtyred"

if one is doing an exact replica then i totally agree 9 and 11 is an integral part

in my case i'm probably 90% accurate with some leeway over the final 10% because I'm trying to enhance the experience with modern technology eg brakes and dampers

also there is a big difference between lateral grip, which is what a wide tyre gives you, handling balance, and fun.

also consider that tyre technology has moved on a lot since 73, and that the RSR was a racing car and racing cars usually enjoy v smooth tarmac (obv Targa Florio the exception) NOT bumpy poorly surfaced and cambered British B roads

horses for courses!

money no object I'd have 2 sets of wheels... but as a compromise 9's on the back do it for me, but Mike makes some interesting points about the geometry and I will check this out