Hi, I'm currently investigating having all the paint and seam sealer stripped from my 914 body shell and having it de-rusted prior to restoration, and then primed once the welding is complete. I am very interested in understanding the processes used and who does them, so I can choose the ones I think are best, so I've been doing my research. I am 90% sure that I have already ruled out the dip in paint stripper / methylene chloride / dichloromethane paint removal method, and the dip in hydrochloric acid rust removal method, and narrowed my choice down to pyrolytic paint removal (baking in an oven with no oxygen inside), and rust removal with phosphoric acid.
One of the companies who I have spoken to who offers these services mentioned that they have done a few 914's before. I would be interested to hear from anyone who may own one of them about their opinions of the process, and how they got on with their restoration after having the shell stripped and de-rusted. I am kind of hoping their owners may be on here? I am only really looking for info from people who have had this work done themselves, so have a first hand opinion, not 2nd hand stories about what apparently happened to someone else (because I think this leaves too much ambiguity about who did the work and what processes were used, etc).
Primer wise I have no doubt that my preferred process would be EPD / E coat dip. I am not a paint expert, but I have been involved with E coat in OEM application which also benchmarked many alternative finishing processes too. EPD / E coat was in a different league in terms of salt spray test hours compared to all of the alternatives, although some of the alternatives could be up to about 80% as good if the right combination of pre-treatments (phosphate washes, etc). However, only one company seems to EDP / E coat as a service for restorations in the UK, and I believe they use stripping and de-rusting methods which I have already ruled out.
If anyone has had their 914 shell or other model stripped and de-rusted by any method available in the UK, I'd be interested in discussing it. Thank you,
Richard
Anyone had their 914 body shell stripped?
Moderators: drummerboytom, MdR
Anyone had their 914 body shell stripped?
Regards,
RichardJ
1975 California spec 914 1.8 restoration project
RichardJ
1975 California spec 914 1.8 restoration project
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jtparr
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Re: Anyone had their 914 body shell stripped?
Envirostrip
Did my E Type...good guys and good process...plenty of cars have passed through their hands
Won’t suit all..this subject raises a range of opinions....
Did my E Type...good guys and good process...plenty of cars have passed through their hands
Won’t suit all..this subject raises a range of opinions....
1974 2.7 Carrera
(full restoration. now as an RS Touring)
1963 3.8 E Type
( 11 years in the making…………………….)
1952. XK120…the next one ……….……..)
(full restoration. now as an RS Touring)
1963 3.8 E Type
( 11 years in the making…………………….)
1952. XK120…the next one ……….……..)
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smallspeed
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Re: Anyone had their 914 body shell stripped?
I know there are lovers and haters of the “acid method” but I watched a “car sos” the other day and they just baked the car clean. This seemed like it would suit everyone..
Then in the episode the other night they baked a pagoda sl and then acid bathed it..
Are these two separate processes or one and some dodgy editing?
Then in the episode the other night they baked a pagoda sl and then acid bathed it..
Are these two separate processes or one and some dodgy editing?
Re: Anyone had their 914 body shell stripped?
On two separate occasions, many years ago, I had 914 shells ‘dry stripped’ at the place down in Sussex (still there) which seemed to work ok. They also did work for Porsche GB, which was a powerful recommendation: they had a then-new 964 cabrio on which to strip the back end, which some lowlife had vandalised by pouring half a gallon of petrol through the engine grille and then setting light to it.
Disadvantage was that the plastic media they used penetrated every hidden cavity and removal afterwards was exhaustive and obviously not complete: even 25 years later odd bits come to light. However the thought of having some acid-based preparation remaining there would be distinctly worse: also some sort of dipping process would damage the insulated heater tubes sealed inside the side members, which couldn’t be removed.
Disadvantage was that the plastic media they used penetrated every hidden cavity and removal afterwards was exhaustive and obviously not complete: even 25 years later odd bits come to light. However the thought of having some acid-based preparation remaining there would be distinctly worse: also some sort of dipping process would damage the insulated heater tubes sealed inside the side members, which couldn’t be removed.
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KS
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Re: Anyone had their 914 body shell stripped?
When stripping, it is usual practice to cut the sill open and remove the flexible heater channel, replacing it and welding back up during restoration. The chemical used by Envirostrip is not a long-term hazard (and is neutralised anyway), unlike that used by a rival. I've seen the consequences of the latter...eitnurg wrote:However the thought of having some acid-based preparation remaining there would be distinctly worse: also some sort of dipping process would damage the insulated heater tubes sealed inside the side members, which couldn’t be removed.
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defianty
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Re: Anyone had their 914 body shell stripped?
I spent a bit of time researching stripping methods and as my car only had localised rust issues I decided to go the media blasting route, that and most of the outer paint is already removed. I was a bit concerned about the horror stories, but I'd heard those from both camps. I really do feel there's a best process for the car you have and what you want to achieve. For my application blasting will be the way to go. The last time I was there we discussed my worries regarding warping due to heat and I asked what issues they'd had in the past. The answer was a solid 'we've never warped a panel!' Also during that visit they'd just finished a Dino, so I thought if it's good enough for a Dino it's good enough for me. I only hope is that there's more left of my car than there was of the Dino 
Re: Anyone had their 914 body shell stripped?
Thank you very much for the replies folks.
I believe the ultimate process, based on my research so far would be:
1. Paint / seal sealer / filler stripping in a pyrolysis oven.
2. Rust removal in a phosphoric acid based solution (which eats rust, but not steel, unlike most other acids, but costs an awful lot more)
3. Neutralisation of the acid and drying
4. Covering in a rust inhibitor to give a little protection while doing repairs
5. Re-immersion in the phosphoric acid solution again to remove any surface rust which formed while repairing
6. Thorough washing to remove all chemicals
7. Zinc phosphate coating (this creates a porous layer, chemically bonded to the steel surface, which can hugely increase paint adhesion)
8. Immersion priming in electrophoretic / EPD / e-coat, like modern production cars
Smallspeed - the oven removed paint, seal sealer, etc. The acid dip removes just rust if phosphoric acid based, or rust plus steel if hydrochloric, etc., so yes, two separate processes.
For removable panels, I have found one company who follows all of the above, with the possible exception of the zinc phosphate, which I forgot to ask about. Unfortunately, but understandably, they do not have dip tanks big enough to prime the whole shell that way, so instead they spray it. Only one of the stripping companies seems to have dip tanks big enough to dip a shell, but I think I've already ruled them out for other reasons. I've been told they won't dip prime a shell that they have not stripped.
My understanding so far is the stripping in a pyrolysis oven leaves no chemical residues like the 'dip in paint stripper' method does. I believe a lot of the horror stories that are easily found about shells that have been stripped are due to acids or stripping chemical residues which have not been washed out correctly later getting damp again and either seeping to newly painted areas 9stripping chemicals) or corroding otherwise good steel (hydrochloric acid). I believe the pyrolytic stripping process is also a lot greener, as it produces no chemical waste which has to be disposed of. I believe the fumes created are burned again at a far higher temperature, so the nasty stuff in them doesn't get released to the atmosphere.
I have had problems with a shell which I had (partially) blasted with rust appearing a few years later in spots where there never originally was any. It had clearly come through from behind. On leaving that rust until I could poke a screwdriver through the panel, quite a large amount of sand poured out of the resulting hole. It had clearly been holding moisture against the back of the panel, in a spot where I never did work out how how the sand got there, and in which it would have been pretty much impossible to remove all of it from.
From previous discussions with restorers about media blasting panels, it seems like doing them without distorting anything is largely down to the skill of the person doing the work. Nothing distorted on the shell I had the bottom 12" of blasted before, I watches the guy do the whole job, and made sure he didn't stray too far from the edges of the panels, where the extra forming stiffens them.
I asked a lot of questions about the risk of panels distorting during the pyrolytic stripping process. The temperature in the oven ramps up over a certain time, then holds the shell at the right temperature before ramping down again. Apparently distortion is only a problem where something else causes a local hot spot. Exampled were very thick filler or very thick sound deadening, the latter of which was recommended to be removed first. Removing thick filler first didn't seem to be such a concern, presumably cause whatever it is hiding isn't the right shape anyway, so a little more distortion there probably wouldn't make the repair any more difficult.
I'm aware of the heater pipe issue when stripping Porsche shells. It's a pity they didn't use steel pipes like VW in this respect. My heater channels / longitudinals are very solid, so it's a shame to have to cut them open just to take the pipes out. However, after discussing this with the pyrolytic stripping guy I've been speaking to who has done 911's and 914's before, I'm almost coming around to thinking this could be an advantage, given the lack of availability of dip priming for the whole shell. I think it makes more sense to cut the inner panel out to remove the pipes (although this will probably require a re-design of the clips which hold the pipes to make reassembly possible). That way the insides can be thoroughly cleaned and primed. The removed panel can then be welded back in so the whole join will be covered by the sill carpets, ideally using a butt weld with a permanent backing strip. Then once painted they can have heated waxoyl or similar sprayed in while on a rotisserie, to try to coat the back of the welds.
I believe the ultimate process, based on my research so far would be:
1. Paint / seal sealer / filler stripping in a pyrolysis oven.
2. Rust removal in a phosphoric acid based solution (which eats rust, but not steel, unlike most other acids, but costs an awful lot more)
3. Neutralisation of the acid and drying
4. Covering in a rust inhibitor to give a little protection while doing repairs
5. Re-immersion in the phosphoric acid solution again to remove any surface rust which formed while repairing
6. Thorough washing to remove all chemicals
7. Zinc phosphate coating (this creates a porous layer, chemically bonded to the steel surface, which can hugely increase paint adhesion)
8. Immersion priming in electrophoretic / EPD / e-coat, like modern production cars
Smallspeed - the oven removed paint, seal sealer, etc. The acid dip removes just rust if phosphoric acid based, or rust plus steel if hydrochloric, etc., so yes, two separate processes.
For removable panels, I have found one company who follows all of the above, with the possible exception of the zinc phosphate, which I forgot to ask about. Unfortunately, but understandably, they do not have dip tanks big enough to prime the whole shell that way, so instead they spray it. Only one of the stripping companies seems to have dip tanks big enough to dip a shell, but I think I've already ruled them out for other reasons. I've been told they won't dip prime a shell that they have not stripped.
My understanding so far is the stripping in a pyrolysis oven leaves no chemical residues like the 'dip in paint stripper' method does. I believe a lot of the horror stories that are easily found about shells that have been stripped are due to acids or stripping chemical residues which have not been washed out correctly later getting damp again and either seeping to newly painted areas 9stripping chemicals) or corroding otherwise good steel (hydrochloric acid). I believe the pyrolytic stripping process is also a lot greener, as it produces no chemical waste which has to be disposed of. I believe the fumes created are burned again at a far higher temperature, so the nasty stuff in them doesn't get released to the atmosphere.
I have had problems with a shell which I had (partially) blasted with rust appearing a few years later in spots where there never originally was any. It had clearly come through from behind. On leaving that rust until I could poke a screwdriver through the panel, quite a large amount of sand poured out of the resulting hole. It had clearly been holding moisture against the back of the panel, in a spot where I never did work out how how the sand got there, and in which it would have been pretty much impossible to remove all of it from.
From previous discussions with restorers about media blasting panels, it seems like doing them without distorting anything is largely down to the skill of the person doing the work. Nothing distorted on the shell I had the bottom 12" of blasted before, I watches the guy do the whole job, and made sure he didn't stray too far from the edges of the panels, where the extra forming stiffens them.
I asked a lot of questions about the risk of panels distorting during the pyrolytic stripping process. The temperature in the oven ramps up over a certain time, then holds the shell at the right temperature before ramping down again. Apparently distortion is only a problem where something else causes a local hot spot. Exampled were very thick filler or very thick sound deadening, the latter of which was recommended to be removed first. Removing thick filler first didn't seem to be such a concern, presumably cause whatever it is hiding isn't the right shape anyway, so a little more distortion there probably wouldn't make the repair any more difficult.
I'm aware of the heater pipe issue when stripping Porsche shells. It's a pity they didn't use steel pipes like VW in this respect. My heater channels / longitudinals are very solid, so it's a shame to have to cut them open just to take the pipes out. However, after discussing this with the pyrolytic stripping guy I've been speaking to who has done 911's and 914's before, I'm almost coming around to thinking this could be an advantage, given the lack of availability of dip priming for the whole shell. I think it makes more sense to cut the inner panel out to remove the pipes (although this will probably require a re-design of the clips which hold the pipes to make reassembly possible). That way the insides can be thoroughly cleaned and primed. The removed panel can then be welded back in so the whole join will be covered by the sill carpets, ideally using a butt weld with a permanent backing strip. Then once painted they can have heated waxoyl or similar sprayed in while on a rotisserie, to try to coat the back of the welds.
Regards,
RichardJ
1975 California spec 914 1.8 restoration project
RichardJ
1975 California spec 914 1.8 restoration project
Re: Anyone had their 914 body shell stripped?
Richard
For what it's worth, i looked into this and I went through all the permutations and advice and came to the conclusion that for me, dipping isnt worth it unless you suspect the shell will come out like a colander (so you know what you're really up against), or money is no object to making sure everything is as good as it can be (i was in the former position). If it's the odd bit of rust here and there, I deemed it better to tackle it locally using soda blasting, leaving all the original seam sealer etc untouched.
You could of course go the whole way with soda and blast the entire shell. A good safe method of paint removal if the operative knows what they're doing.
Chris
For what it's worth, i looked into this and I went through all the permutations and advice and came to the conclusion that for me, dipping isnt worth it unless you suspect the shell will come out like a colander (so you know what you're really up against), or money is no object to making sure everything is as good as it can be (i was in the former position). If it's the odd bit of rust here and there, I deemed it better to tackle it locally using soda blasting, leaving all the original seam sealer etc untouched.
You could of course go the whole way with soda and blast the entire shell. A good safe method of paint removal if the operative knows what they're doing.
Chris
Re: Anyone had their 914 body shell stripped?
Thank you. It's definitely a difficult thing to decide on. I stripped a beetle myself 20+ years ago with scrapers and paint stripper, and remember it taking an unbelievable amount of time. Back then I had the time but minimal money to spend. The materials probably cost under £100, but it probably took a few hundred hours. My 914 project is certainly not a 'money no object' restoration either (unfortunately!). However, knowing how long it'll take to remove all the underseal and prep all the existing paint in all the not so accessible areas for painting over (where it is good enough), I like the idea of having the shell stripped.
There used to be a good blasting company about half a mile from my workshop until about 6 months ago. If they were still there, that would have been a big plus for just having the local repair areas blasted, but they closed down, and I don't know of anyone else local-ish who I would trust to blast bodywork. This and the problems with trapped blasting media holding moisture against the back of a panel on a previous project make me wary.
I recently had dents in one of the early bumpers I'll be fitting straightened out at a really good restorer's near me, as I wasn't sure how straight they needed to be for re-chromers to be able to cover it up. While there I took the opportunity to ask their opinions on stripping shells. One of the guys who runs it was very much of the opinion that I should strip all the visible external panels with paint stripper (largely to remove all traces of the dodgy respray), then paint over the original paint on all the non external panels, based on the condition of the panels I took to show him. The other guy who runs it was more open to stripping the shell. The have some of the shells they work on stripped, and not others, depending on condition and how much work is needed.
I can justify the cost of having the shell stripped by taking on more work than I usually would do. I have to admit, the idea of not having to remove any paint before doing the welded repairs, and then also having no smoke from nearby paint and underseal getting too hot during my repairs really appeals too.
Mostly the 914 build threads on DDK get me enthused to make time to work on my 914, but I think it is 'chief's' thread in which he is currently removing the underseal from the wheel arches, and showing the progress over one evenings work. He's doing a really nice job, but the thought of removing the underseal from mine the same way isn't enthusing me!
jtparr and KS, did you have shells primed by the company who stripped them for you too, or did they just strip them for you, and you then had them primed elsewhere?
There used to be a good blasting company about half a mile from my workshop until about 6 months ago. If they were still there, that would have been a big plus for just having the local repair areas blasted, but they closed down, and I don't know of anyone else local-ish who I would trust to blast bodywork. This and the problems with trapped blasting media holding moisture against the back of a panel on a previous project make me wary.
I recently had dents in one of the early bumpers I'll be fitting straightened out at a really good restorer's near me, as I wasn't sure how straight they needed to be for re-chromers to be able to cover it up. While there I took the opportunity to ask their opinions on stripping shells. One of the guys who runs it was very much of the opinion that I should strip all the visible external panels with paint stripper (largely to remove all traces of the dodgy respray), then paint over the original paint on all the non external panels, based on the condition of the panels I took to show him. The other guy who runs it was more open to stripping the shell. The have some of the shells they work on stripped, and not others, depending on condition and how much work is needed.
I can justify the cost of having the shell stripped by taking on more work than I usually would do. I have to admit, the idea of not having to remove any paint before doing the welded repairs, and then also having no smoke from nearby paint and underseal getting too hot during my repairs really appeals too.
Mostly the 914 build threads on DDK get me enthused to make time to work on my 914, but I think it is 'chief's' thread in which he is currently removing the underseal from the wheel arches, and showing the progress over one evenings work. He's doing a really nice job, but the thought of removing the underseal from mine the same way isn't enthusing me!
jtparr and KS, did you have shells primed by the company who stripped them for you too, or did they just strip them for you, and you then had them primed elsewhere?
Regards,
RichardJ
1975 California spec 914 1.8 restoration project
RichardJ
1975 California spec 914 1.8 restoration project
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acclassics
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Re: Anyone had their 914 body shell stripped?
Just my two cents, make sure the blaster uses an epoxy primer, and then finish in a top coat (as the epoxy primer is not UV stable). I have a few shells that way and no sign of rust returning (i.e surface/flash) at all, and thats while awaiting restoration. On the flip side I had a blasted shell in etch primer, and after 6 months it needed to be done again, as the atmosphere just penetrated through the primer. Perhaps i was unlucky but i will insist on epoxy primer with a top coat in future. I would certainly like to give envirostrip ago at some stage in the future, but as of yet, havent.
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Re: Anyone had their 914 body shell stripped?
I currently had my 356 acid dipped by surface processing ltd, i'm happy the way it come out. Very clean, just steel body came back. It is going back to get dipped again after all welding done. Very important to drill holes in the sills and box sections as acid can't get, escape from those areas. And when i cut sills out for welding, allot of white cristals fall out which i think is salt/acid. Which is scary, i will have a go at them that in my opion acids not been neutralised properly.
Regarding e coat it is best primer after all but, the problem is that it will be baked on at 185c which in my case melts all lead loading i want to do.
If you want your car lead loaded instead of plastic fillers you can't use e coat. Unless I don't know something about it.
So looking for alternative as well how to protect the body
Regarding e coat it is best primer after all but, the problem is that it will be baked on at 185c which in my case melts all lead loading i want to do.
If you want your car lead loaded instead of plastic fillers you can't use e coat. Unless I don't know something about it.
So looking for alternative as well how to protect the body
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Mr Pharmacist
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Re: Anyone had their 914 body shell stripped?
just out of interest, why would you have it dipped again after welding?
Stuart
1970 914 2056cc
1979 924 n/a - RIP
1986 924S
1969 912 Targa - sold
1970 914 2056cc
1979 924 n/a - RIP
1986 924S
1969 912 Targa - sold
Re: Anyone had their 914 body shell stripped?
Because you will get suface rust from moisture in the air. Welding can take up to 6 months sometimes. You have to coat bare metal asap, within hours for best protection and long life
Re: Anyone had their 914 body shell stripped?
Yes a 2nd de-rusting is the plan. The company I have been speaking to de-rust again (with a phosphoric acid based solution, not hydrochloric) when the shell goes back for priming. I recently saw a Volvo Amazon shell which they'd stripped and had been coated with some kind of inhibitor (probably iron phosphate left behind by the phosphoric acid dip?) and which had then been sat in the restorer's (dry!) workshop for around a year. It had the faintest hint of brown all over from atmospheric moisture, but nothing worse than that. No worse than when I stripped a Beetle shell with paint stripper and covered it with Jenolite 20 something years ago. It was interesting seeing the Amazon shell in that state as it had had a few spot welded seams 'undone' for repairs / modifications after stripping. There was the tiniest amount of dark spots where the seam had been (hopefully iron phosphate), but no red rust. It would have almost certainly been a little bit of red rust trapped inside the seam before the shell was de-rusted. Overall it was very impressive.
Interesting that the e-coat bake temperature is higher than the melting point of body solder. I bet that's caught people out before now.
The white crystals trapped in inaccessible sections is something I want to avoid. I too would be rather worried to find them. I'm hoping that minimising the amount of different chemicals the shell is dipped into by going for pyrolytic stripping not 'paint stripper' dipping, I will minimise the number of chances of chemicals trapped in the shell. Have you tried mixing some of the crystals with water and measuring the pH level to see if they are acid, and if so, how acidic? All or almost all of the stories I have come across so far by talking to restorers or in forum threads where such white crystals have been found trapped seem to be rather concentrated around one particular company. I have been told (by their competition) that they dip in hydrochloric acid to de-rust, and have read very contrasting info on how easy or otherwise hydrochloric acid is to neutralise when trapped in the details of body shells.
Many years ago I had a VW bus where the paint was blistering on the edge of a door. I removed all the loose rust with a cup brush on a grinder, and brush painted 2 coats of Bonda Zinc primer on it. I put nothing over the top, and continued using it for around 2 years as an experiment to see how well the primer protected the previously rusty steel, as I had read that it was a primer which was not porus. My experiment seemed to support this, as no rust came back through in that time despite it being kept outside. A restorers who work on some fairly exotic cars near me used to prime the shell of every car they restored with Bonda Zinc primer first 20 ish years ago. The straightened out my dented 914 bumper for me a few weeks ago, and I wish I had asked whether they still use Bonda zinc primer now while I was there. I kind of expect modern primers to be far better, but as an easy to use, single pack product for DIY use, I like Bonda zinc primer a lot. It seems to be rather harder to get these days - I bought my last couple of tins from ebay as nobody local seems to stock it any more.
Interesting that the e-coat bake temperature is higher than the melting point of body solder. I bet that's caught people out before now.
The white crystals trapped in inaccessible sections is something I want to avoid. I too would be rather worried to find them. I'm hoping that minimising the amount of different chemicals the shell is dipped into by going for pyrolytic stripping not 'paint stripper' dipping, I will minimise the number of chances of chemicals trapped in the shell. Have you tried mixing some of the crystals with water and measuring the pH level to see if they are acid, and if so, how acidic? All or almost all of the stories I have come across so far by talking to restorers or in forum threads where such white crystals have been found trapped seem to be rather concentrated around one particular company. I have been told (by their competition) that they dip in hydrochloric acid to de-rust, and have read very contrasting info on how easy or otherwise hydrochloric acid is to neutralise when trapped in the details of body shells.
Many years ago I had a VW bus where the paint was blistering on the edge of a door. I removed all the loose rust with a cup brush on a grinder, and brush painted 2 coats of Bonda Zinc primer on it. I put nothing over the top, and continued using it for around 2 years as an experiment to see how well the primer protected the previously rusty steel, as I had read that it was a primer which was not porus. My experiment seemed to support this, as no rust came back through in that time despite it being kept outside. A restorers who work on some fairly exotic cars near me used to prime the shell of every car they restored with Bonda Zinc primer first 20 ish years ago. The straightened out my dented 914 bumper for me a few weeks ago, and I wish I had asked whether they still use Bonda zinc primer now while I was there. I kind of expect modern primers to be far better, but as an easy to use, single pack product for DIY use, I like Bonda zinc primer a lot. It seems to be rather harder to get these days - I bought my last couple of tins from ebay as nobody local seems to stock it any more.
Regards,
RichardJ
1975 California spec 914 1.8 restoration project
RichardJ
1975 California spec 914 1.8 restoration project
Re: Anyone had their 914 body shell stripped?
Well I haven't tested those white crystals for ph level yet but i will do and i will take samples to them and ask them to explain what is it as i been told that all chemicals will be neutralised which wasn't a case!
I have diluted crystals with water and mixed with soda, was no reaction which means it is not acid.
It suggests that is some sort of salts. I maybe wrong!
Regarding e coat i bet allot of people got caught on that!
Would be nice to hear from people who used e coat and tried to use body solder. In my understanding it is pointless to primer body and then try to clean it so you can apply solder. On top of this you are using flame which will burn other side of body panel with primer on
I have diluted crystals with water and mixed with soda, was no reaction which means it is not acid.
It suggests that is some sort of salts. I maybe wrong!
Regarding e coat i bet allot of people got caught on that!
Would be nice to hear from people who used e coat and tried to use body solder. In my understanding it is pointless to primer body and then try to clean it so you can apply solder. On top of this you are using flame which will burn other side of body panel with primer on