Not been on here for ages, but good to see the site is alive and well and busy as ever!
Anyway I'm trying to get my car going so that I can get it on the road for the summer and I'm running low on ideas as it just will not run! I can get it to fire on what sounds like most or all cylinders, but it will not run! dies as soon as I so much as touch the throttle or stop turning the starter!
Engine is a 2.2T in a 1967 911
I have replaced all the leads, plugs (gapped them too), tried 2 dizzy's, have triple checked the firing order and fitted Mallory Hi-fire CDI ignition as the old CDI box was absent, it does have a nice fat spark on all plugs. Ignition timing set to TDC.
Carbs are Zenith 40tin and have been rebuilt by me, all seemed ok on re-assembly jets are clean and the floats dont stick or anything and fuel pump is new and regulator is set to 3.5psi.
What could it be that I'm missing as engine was a runner?
any ideas as I'm running out!
cheers
Dom
Getting my engine to start!
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Gary71
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Hi Dom,
Sounds like a pain! My 2.4 running Zeniths can also be a pig to start if it's not in the mood!
I'd run though the following to try and sort it, this may be a granny v egg sucking list but fingers crossed it might lead to a result! I'd put money on fuel mixture and / or timing / spark strength.
1. Power to ignition system: Does the ignition switch still provide 12v to the ignition once you release it from start position? Never know, might be something that basic!
2. Fuel. After you've been cranking it are the plugs wet with fuel? By what you say I'd be surprised if there was no fuel getting in, but it may be flooding or very lean. Are the accelerator pumps working? I have to pump the throttle 3 or 4 times to put a nice rich mixture in the intakes before my car will start from cold. Even then you have to catch it on the throttle and hold the revs for a few seconds until it clears up.
3. Spark. Is the points gap about right? Is it timed from the correct cylinder? I guess you haven't timed it with a strobe as it doesn't run yet. Should it be timed at TDC? Normally I believe they are 5deg BTDC. Check out Barrys latest advice on static timing:
http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5562
4. Once you've double checked the timing on number one cylinder check the firing order again. I know you've already done it but your symptoms are very familiar
. Check it again, get a mate to check it. Get his mate to check it!
5. After that....assuming you have a reasonable fuel mixture and a spark arriving at roughly the correct time...the options are less attractive!
6. Compression test. Unlikely all six cylinders have failed enough to stop it even starting, but maybe worth a look. Could be caused by over tight valve clearances.
7. Broken cam chain / sheared crank pulley key.
...No, we don't want to go there do we....
8. Slipping / broken distributor drive. Does the rotor arm actually rotate when you are cranking?
Finger crossed it's something really basic and you'll be posting tomorrow about the fantastic sound of a 2.2 flat six!
Good luck!
Sounds like a pain! My 2.4 running Zeniths can also be a pig to start if it's not in the mood!
I'd run though the following to try and sort it, this may be a granny v egg sucking list but fingers crossed it might lead to a result! I'd put money on fuel mixture and / or timing / spark strength.
1. Power to ignition system: Does the ignition switch still provide 12v to the ignition once you release it from start position? Never know, might be something that basic!
2. Fuel. After you've been cranking it are the plugs wet with fuel? By what you say I'd be surprised if there was no fuel getting in, but it may be flooding or very lean. Are the accelerator pumps working? I have to pump the throttle 3 or 4 times to put a nice rich mixture in the intakes before my car will start from cold. Even then you have to catch it on the throttle and hold the revs for a few seconds until it clears up.
3. Spark. Is the points gap about right? Is it timed from the correct cylinder? I guess you haven't timed it with a strobe as it doesn't run yet. Should it be timed at TDC? Normally I believe they are 5deg BTDC. Check out Barrys latest advice on static timing:
http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5562
4. Once you've double checked the timing on number one cylinder check the firing order again. I know you've already done it but your symptoms are very familiar
. Check it again, get a mate to check it. Get his mate to check it! 5. After that....assuming you have a reasonable fuel mixture and a spark arriving at roughly the correct time...the options are less attractive!
6. Compression test. Unlikely all six cylinders have failed enough to stop it even starting, but maybe worth a look. Could be caused by over tight valve clearances.
7. Broken cam chain / sheared crank pulley key.
...No, we don't want to go there do we....8. Slipping / broken distributor drive. Does the rotor arm actually rotate when you are cranking?
Finger crossed it's something really basic and you'll be posting tomorrow about the fantastic sound of a 2.2 flat six!
Good luck!
Hi Gary
Thanks for the input, I'm sure it is something simple like you said!
Come to think of it I took a couple of the plugs out after failing to get it going and they were a bit wet with fuel, so maybe a weak or failing spark is the answer.
Will have the rocker covers off to double check the distributor to no1 TDC timing so will check to see that the cams still go round at the same time! hopefully chains etc are ok!!!
Not sure where I got the idea of timing the distributor to 0 degrees, will try 5 BTDC and see if that helps! and have a read of barrys advice too!
Will report back in a couple of days! fingers crossed!
cheeers
Dom
Thanks for the input, I'm sure it is something simple like you said!
Come to think of it I took a couple of the plugs out after failing to get it going and they were a bit wet with fuel, so maybe a weak or failing spark is the answer.
Will have the rocker covers off to double check the distributor to no1 TDC timing so will check to see that the cams still go round at the same time! hopefully chains etc are ok!!!
Not sure where I got the idea of timing the distributor to 0 degrees, will try 5 BTDC and see if that helps! and have a read of barrys advice too!
Will report back in a couple of days! fingers crossed!
cheeers
Dom
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impmad2000
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If you have stripped and rebuilt the Zenith's, how have you set up the accel enrichment pumps ? If the engine dies the moment you touch the throttle, you may be putting the fire out with too much fuel. I don't know, as I havent been there, perhaps Gary can offer some advice as to how to set this up. What base setup have you used for the newly rebuilt carbs. I know for mapping EFI, I'd get a good idle first, and then adjust accel enrichments later. I am sure there is some similarity here too.
If the sttic timing is set at 0, instead of 5Deg BTDC, then it is slightly retarded. This will make starting easier, rather than harder.
For what it is worth, it sounds like fuel to me. Either too much or too little.
My 2.4 on Zeniths starts really easily, but that doesn't mean it is right !
Just some ideas
Tim
If the sttic timing is set at 0, instead of 5Deg BTDC, then it is slightly retarded. This will make starting easier, rather than harder.
For what it is worth, it sounds like fuel to me. Either too much or too little.
My 2.4 on Zeniths starts really easily, but that doesn't mean it is right !
Just some ideas
Tim
Tim Bennett
RHD Targa 2.2T EFI, Triumph ITB's, EDIS and Megasquirt.
"Old enough to know what's right and young enough not to choose it"
#1153
RHD Targa 2.2T EFI, Triumph ITB's, EDIS and Megasquirt.
"Old enough to know what's right and young enough not to choose it"
#1153
Set the carbs up as per the info in the Haynes book/Garrys site, think it was 2.5 turns on the big screw and 1 turn on the small screw. Initially set the accel pumps as per Haynes as I did not have the measuring pipette thing, but I too suspected that they were putting the fire out so I backed them right off to see if it helped it run when I opened the throttle...... still died though 
Like you Tim I'm beginning to think that it is flooding though
Like you Tim I'm beginning to think that it is flooding though
but if the car has been standing for any length of time, try new fuel, it goes stale very quickly these days.-
Gary71
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With regard the accelerator pumps the correct way to do it is described here:
Accelerator pump set up page 1
and here
Accelerator pump set up page 2
I haven't measured the discharge quantities as it ran OK first time out! It's on the list of things to do...
I'd of thought it would start though; even if these are totally wrong.
Idle, low speed and transients are all down to set up on these carbs, full throttle is easy!
Keep going, it will burst into life eventually and upset all your neighbours!
Accelerator pump set up page 1
and here
Accelerator pump set up page 2
I haven't measured the discharge quantities as it ran OK first time out! It's on the list of things to do...
I'd of thought it would start though; even if these are totally wrong.
Idle, low speed and transients are all down to set up on these carbs, full throttle is easy!
Keep going, it will burst into life eventually and upset all your neighbours!
-
Gary71
- Nurse, I think I need some assistance
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Everyone replied at once!
I've ended up running with the idle mixture screws (the big one with the spring on) out about 5 turns...
The mixture (on a Co meter) was correct with them at around 3.5, but the engine would die when touching the throttle as you describe. I have a feeling it was leaning the mixture when you touched the throttle (rather than flooding it on the accelerator pumps). Making it slightly richer to start with seemed to do the trick.
Maybe a detail set up on the accelerator pumps is called for...
(for both of us!)
I've ended up running with the idle mixture screws (the big one with the spring on) out about 5 turns...
The mixture (on a Co meter) was correct with them at around 3.5, but the engine would die when touching the throttle as you describe. I have a feeling it was leaning the mixture when you touched the throttle (rather than flooding it on the accelerator pumps). Making it slightly richer to start with seemed to do the trick.
Maybe a detail set up on the accelerator pumps is called for...
(for both of us!)-
impmad2000
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Important **** As Lewis says ***
Fuel goes off in a matter of a few months.
Can you rig up a fuel feed from a can, just to get it started.
Too weak will kill it as fast as too rich. Wet plugs indicate too rich.
Fuel goes off in a matter of a few months.
Can you rig up a fuel feed from a can, just to get it started.
Too weak will kill it as fast as too rich. Wet plugs indicate too rich.
Tim Bennett
RHD Targa 2.2T EFI, Triumph ITB's, EDIS and Megasquirt.
"Old enough to know what's right and young enough not to choose it"
#1153
RHD Targa 2.2T EFI, Triumph ITB's, EDIS and Megasquirt.
"Old enough to know what's right and young enough not to choose it"
#1153
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impmad2000
- I need to get out more!
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- Location: Leicester, a convenient mid point !
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Ever tried to start a lawn mower that was last used 6 months ago !!
Be careful with fuel cans, rigging things up like this does scare me. I always have a fire extinguisher handy.
Be Safe
Tim
Be careful with fuel cans, rigging things up like this does scare me. I always have a fire extinguisher handy.
Be Safe
Tim
Tim Bennett
RHD Targa 2.2T EFI, Triumph ITB's, EDIS and Megasquirt.
"Old enough to know what's right and young enough not to choose it"
#1153
RHD Targa 2.2T EFI, Triumph ITB's, EDIS and Megasquirt.
"Old enough to know what's right and young enough not to choose it"
#1153
UPDATE!
Finally got some time to work on the car a couple of weeks ago and guess what?!
I've finally got it started!
and man does it sound great!
All I had to do was drain out and replace the 5 month old fuel in the tank and tip a teaspoon of fuel down each trumpet to give it a bit of encouragement 
and within 3 turns of the key it burst into life!!! 
Thanks for all the great advice and encouragement guys, and thanks for reminding me to check the obvious things (like fuel) that are so easily overlooked!
Balanced the carbs and it now starts and idles great, think I need to adjust the injector pumps a bit as every time I 'blip' it quite a bit of grey unburnt fuel smoke comes out of the exhaust, think I'll wait until it's on the road before any fine tuning commences!
Now just got to sort a few little bits for the MOT and we're be on the road!
I've finally got it started!
and man does it sound great!
All I had to do was drain out and replace the 5 month old fuel in the tank
and tip a teaspoon of fuel down each trumpet to give it a bit of encouragement and within 3 turns of the key it burst into life!!! Thanks for all the great advice and encouragement guys, and thanks for reminding me to check the obvious things (like fuel) that are so easily overlooked!
Balanced the carbs and it now starts and idles great, think I need to adjust the injector pumps a bit as every time I 'blip' it quite a bit of grey unburnt fuel smoke comes out of the exhaust, think I'll wait until it's on the road before any fine tuning commences!
Now just got to sort a few little bits for the MOT and we're be on the road!
