O/T - E60 5 series touring buying advice please

[Johnny Graham]

Calling Mr Smallspeed!

Any pitfalls or major news on these? E60 or 61? 520d or 530d?

The 520d looks great for economy - 50mpg and 120 quid tax for a big family barge-I should co-co -and it looks like it has plenty of pep, for a four that is.

The 530d looks like it has stonking torque, but no improvement on the running costs of our outgoing 320CDI mercwagen.

The 525d looks..errmm well, what is the point of the 525d?

M5 tourings in the mid 20's now too, how d'you like that! (but the wife says no!)

I have a vivid memory of being utterly left standing in my 964, by a chipped 535d saloon with 4 passengers just after the Nordschleiffe entry barrier.
I never liked the looks when they were launched but the banglified thing suddenly looks quite classy I reckon, perhaps since I turned 40 - and the current model looks so bland by comparison.

Thanks in advance chaps..

[964RS]

Calling Mr Smallspeed!

Funny. I came onto this post purely to leave the message...."Just PM Ben"....and you'd actually started with that

[pmjt]

I have a vivid memory of being utterly left standing in my 964, by a chipped 535d saloon with 4 passengers just after the Nordschleiffe entry barrier.

I went from an E60 M5 (such a disappointment compared to my two e39 M5's ) to an E61 535d which was an amazing car. A colleague was running an e61 530d which, while a very competent car couldn't hold anything against the 535d

I never liked the looks when they were launched but the banglified thing suddenly looks quite classy I reckon, perhaps since I turned 40 - and the current model looks so bland by comparison.

The looks of the e60 / e61 have definitely matured - but don't be fooled by the f10 / f11 - it's an epic drive that sorts nearly all of the earlier generation's issues - I came very, very close to buying an f11 530d last year and (don't tell the wife) still wish we had

P

[40 scout]

A bit off topic Johnny but how is Maser ownership - I love em but have never had the balls to go for it !


Steve

[smallspeed]

if you can, go for an april 07 onward one, which is when the facelift hit. these cars had a lot of the early issues and electrical gremlins sorted out, plus the "efficient dynamics" business fitted to them (stop-start) which brings the tax down. if you're going for a 520d go for a post sept 07 one, as thats when the new engine came in, which was about 170bhp rather than 160, and also a bit more efficient. you can find the build date on a plate on the front strut tower (first sale/reg date is irrelevant as some of these cars sat around for months due to the economic downturn). Also from april 07 onward there was an option to have a USB port for the stereo. If you have a car with navigation, i believe its about £35 to buy the cable from the dealer and 1/2hr to retrofit it, so quite handy if you listen to music from an ipod or whatever

they seem fairly solid overall.. 525d and 530d's have swirl flap issues, but getting that sorted is not a big expense; you can remove the flaps and fit blanking plugs for about £100, or pay a specialist about £300 to do the whole job for you (prob the better option unless you're a tight-ass like me, as its quite fiddly getting the inlet manifold off ). Its well worth doing, as if one of the flaps falls into the engine it destroys everything on the way through! They weren't fitted to all engines, and its a 2min job to "ahve a feel" and see if they are on a car - the actuator lives at the rear end of the inlet manifold.. Lots of posts on the net about this

there are a few other issues with things like..

autoboxes - according to dealers they're sealed for life, but definitely benefit from oil changes every 60-80k miles or so to prevent failure (usually around 150k miles)
dpf's - older cars now are starting to get problems with DPF's being blocked, which can lead to turbo's going pop if its not caught. Not cheap to replace either
injectors - there is sometimes leak issues with injectors, but this is a fairly normal diesel thing i think (and they're damn expensive to replace)

If you go look at one, drive it for 20+ miles, as any error codes which have been cleared will re-appear within 20miles. Also check through the service info on the iDrive system (will give you a good indication of when brakes, fluids, etc will need to be replaced).
Check the wheels, esp on sports; the 18+ inch rims can crack with runflat tyres due to excessive loads, normally on the inside lips. If the car has run-flats, replace them with non run-flats at your earliest convenience! you won't believe the difference it makes to the ride..

There are occasional issues with leaks from the rear tailgate glass (which can be opened independantly of the boot) but its easy to spot, and not that common.
Try to get one with lots of toys which work - logic 7 stereo is amazing! the standard stereo is not great, middle one (hifi i think its called) is pretty good. Panoramic roof can leak, stick, creak, etc., so prob best avoided, although makes the inside very light and airy. nav for me is a must and quite common, painful to retrofit (all cars have screens in the dash, the nav is 16:9 rather than 4:3 ratio). One other thing I think is essential, is Xenon headlights, if you can get the adaptive ones all the better. Retrofitting xenon's is not hard, but doing it properly (self levelling, washers, etc) is, so better to get the factory fitted ones, as the healight units themselves are different too..

525d and 525i are basically company cars - they fit nicely into the lower tax bands for germany. I think the cut-off used to be 200bhp, which is why a lot of the older BMW's, Audi's, etc had 2.8 or 3.0 litre engines with just under 200bhp and lots of torque. There are loads of 525d's around, but they often have lots of mileage because they've been company cars


If you're going to be doing <15 mile trips, i don't think the diesels are worth it as they don't get upto temp properly, and so you dont get the fuel economy. You can also end up with DPF's getting clogged and things. The running costs (fuel, servicing, etc.) are quite a bit higher, and if you're looking at a higher mileage (100k plus) car, then you may find you need to replace the odd part which is way more expensive too (£400 for an injector, 600+ for a turbo, etc). Because of the extra weight over the front, the front bushes tend to get a bit more of a hammering, as do the brakes, so again potentially higher costs..

For me, the petrol is a better bet, although I do 35miles a day, so not massive mileage. A 525i will return decent mileage, they're simple, and comparitively cheap to service. There's usually quite a bit of choice too, and the engines sound great! If you're doing bigger mileage then diesels may become a better option, although if you're after something with decent performance I'd take a 530i over a 535d just because of the potential running costs! The 535d is a monster though, especially with a decent remap - 340bhp and 710nm float your boat?

one thing to consider (if you can find one, and if you're planning on running the car for a few years) is a 545i or 550i, plus an LPG conversion. For £1500 you can be runnnig on LPG at 70p per litre, and have that creamy v8 engine (4.4 with 330bhp in the 545i and 4.8 with about 370bhp in the 550i). They have enormous spec as standard, often came loaded with options, and are a great drive; proper lux barge with decent sporty handling. They're also quite rare though so a bit tricky to find. engines and gearboxes are pretty bomb proof, and the values are comparitively low due to fuel consumption (although mid 20's is a do-able average in an auto, and 27-ish in a manual one) which scares most people off. For me the ultimate is the m5 touring, BUT i know a lot of people have been disappointed with them, coming from e39 m5's, which are still one of my favourite cars of all time. no touring version though
Which brings me onto the last alternative suggestion.. i have no idea what your budget is, but if you're looking at spending 8-10k on an early e61, then make sure you test-drive a late (52 or 03 plate) 530i before handing over any cash. They are fantastic cars (yes i'm bias, but i couldn't talk BMW's without mentioned the e39 ) and still look pretty modern especially with the sport bumpers. There are some really nice ones around with fairly low mileage and in good condition, and there were some great run-out limited edition cars, such as the champagne edition (I and II) and a dealer edition in montreal blue with "iris" leather, both of which look beautiful..

hope some of that helps

ben

ps.. Bangle is god, BMW styling has gone to pot since he "left" the company

[smallspeed]

a disappointment compared to my two e39 M5's

everything is a disappointment after an e39 M5 except mabe a night locked in the veuve cliquot cellars with sienna miller

[Johnny Graham]

Phil and Ben, awesome help, thanks. I'll be sure to look out for loose flaps and a leaky tailgate - sounds like a standard Friday night out here in Dundee...

The option my wife wants the most? Panoramic roof. Better get the silicone spray out. (now thats more like a Friday night out in Aberdeen..)

[pmjt]

a disappointment compared to my two e39 M5's

everything is a disappointment after an e39 M5 except mabe a night locked in the veuve cliquot cellars with sienna miller

Sorry - I just cannot agree with you. Unless we're talking around the Layer Cake / Alfie era in which case - I concede

P

[smallspeed]

Phil and Ben, awesome help, thanks. I'll be sure to look out for loose flaps and a leaky tailgate - sounds like a standard Friday night out here in Dundee...

The option my wife wants the most? Panoramic roof. Better get the silicone spray out. (now thats more like a Friday night out in Aberdeen..)

Panoramic roof is great, abd if its been looked after properly no reason it shouldn't work properly.. Just needs a bit of maintanence and care..
Let us know how you get on

Pmjt, I agree; some times rose tinted specs have nothing to do with it

[Johnny Graham]

A bit off topic Johnny but how is Maser ownership - I love em but have never had the balls to go for it !


Steve

Sorry Steve, I forgot about you. I will do a proper running report sometime- others have asked too, but in summary its a cheap way to own a special car. It feels special, looks pretty, is pleasant to drive and has the silly/scary rwd turbo power delivery. Its really sad but there is also significant value in having to respond to the 'have you really got a maserati..?' question.
There are bits and pieces that go wrong that people talk about in internet land, like any car, even a BMW!, but the main glitch is the drive by wire throttle - the throttle bodies wear out and the car flashes check engine lights, revs erratically and goes into a variety of limp modes as a result. But thankfully a man with adenoids on the internet has made a contactless one that gets rid of all that, for 400 quid- and without the TB issues, they seem pretty robust, loads about approaching 100k miles.

There is a real sense that each one is built a little different though, and there are clown cars out there. And of course its a car for gently cruising up to a corner/roundabout, before firing out the other side in approximately the direction you want, with a nice exotic turbo V8 wooOOOp-PSSSssss! on each nice mechanical gear change. Its no 911, it just will not heel and toe, it doesnt shrink around you etc. Also, you can get 20 odd to the gallon (I've had 330 miles out of the giant tank) but as soon as you start to use it, the economy plummets. That doesnt seem to happen with my 964, maybe its a forced induction thing.

And it needs more noise. I was going to sell mine before the winter, but I think I'm going to keep it another year, put straight thru pipes on it, and wait and see if values start to creep up again. They have been in the £11-13k range for years. 2-3k running costs - so like running a used golf, then.

Damn, I've gone and done my running report already!

Sienna Miller? - a bit rough for us Maserati owners, frankly

[40 scout]

Great report Johnny !

Was hoping you'd say they were rubbish so I could put that idea to bed!

Cheers

Steve

[Drmark]

Watch the panoramic roof - some owners have had issues and v expensive fix.
Good advice to go post LCI (2007)
520d OK, 530d good and fast enough, 535d great and fast full stop.

Watch for leaking gearbox sump - the are plastic and often crack with age. Fix is about £350 parts labour and oil.
Rear tailgate switch (cheap) and loom (expensive) can be problems - clue is glass tailgate that pops open when you unlock the car.
Watch for airbag alarm - typically front pasenger seat pressure pad issue (expensive)
Starter motors known issue - slow crank like duff battery
Thermostats - main and EGR - prone to fail by 80,000 miles. Clue low running temp ( as determined by OBD computer - no gauge) and poor mpg.
Consider switch to non runflats - transforms ride and you can buy a spare and jack from BMW for less than £200

Great cars though - did 100k in mine and loved it. Now have F11.

Good luck

Mark

Edited to add : don't think swirl flaps are an issue on 530d E60 / 61, at least not later ones, due to improved design.

[cubist]

Hamann F11... Mmmm...

[Bruce M]

Alpina D5.

[58A - 71E]

Johnny
I have had an E60 535d for about 3 months now.
Loads of good advice already given (plenty to read up about sunroof failures!) and there are lots of internet forum (fora) out there.
You haven't said budget but if you can afford to then definitely go post April 2007 as has been said - facelift and newer engines with some gremlins fixed.
So far on mine I've had one diesel injector fail (now they are NOT cheap ) and I've had to replace both thermostats as the car never came up to temp - hence v poor mpg. Watch for clogged sunroof drains; the design is v poor with a restrictor on the end that nicely fills with cr*p - the water then finds its way into the spare wheel well whre lots of v expensive electrics reside I've removed the restrictors on mine and flushed through - yes they were full of cr*p but luckily no water in the boot.
There is a lot written about the swirl flaps - I'm not sure I've seen a definitive guide as to which model / year has them or not, so far I think its safe to assume, until proven otherwise, that they all have them - the only difference seems to be whether its bits of metal (early ones) or bits of plastic (later ones) that end up munching around inside.
TBH if I was buying again I'd probably go petrol instead of diesel unless you are doing 20K+ p.a. - however, it is a lovely thing to drive, loads of kit and to my eye looks good
Here's mine