I was drawn to the 911E advertised on here by 'Glass' before Christmas, it looked like a likeable car at a sensible price.......
Now it seems Nick is breaking it up. It is quite a threshold to cross, the decision must be a pretty grim one to make, and if this is as a result of a need to sell, Nick you have my sympathy. This must say something awful about the true state of the current market.......Discuss! W
Winston
'61 356 BT5 & a lot of broken chain driven stuff
I think the classic car industry is static, the modern Porsche market shrinking, but just my very limited outlook from recent conversations.
If you have a nice car, best hang on to it as a private person.
Everything will sell at a certain price of course, but making a living from all this must be hard.
73T 911 Coupe, road/hillclimber 3.2L
Lola t 492 / 3.2 hillclimb racer
Boxster 987 Gen II 2.9
I see a lot of people with 996/997 wanting to sell but the prices have plummeted. Looks like classics have also been impacted too, but not to the same degree. I am seeing SC's falling closer to early 30's, where previously they would be mid 40's. Its just a sellers market at the moment, so if you need to sell, it appears unfortunately it has to be low.
Jonny
Current custodian of 1976 Porsche 912E, 1973 VW Camper
I agree generally with the comments before. In terms of modern Porsche 911's yes prices are now much lower. GT3RS's and the like have fallen well down from the £250k mark to under £200k. 992 GGT3's which were close to £200k are back around their original selling price £130k ish. I think this is a good move, too many of the Porsche Centres "Special Customers" who were being allocated these special cars, were tied to selling back to the Centres, all of course to make money - well that has all but gone. The special customers are now not prepared to take this risk meaning that ordinary folk now stand a chance of owning a car for what it is rather than what it can return on investment for the owner and of course the Porsche Centre. Interstingly rare 911R's and GT2's are perfomring well, but this is becaue or their rarity - the same rarity reserved for 911RS and the like - prices for these may soften but not by much.
Regarding classics, yes the market has softened especially wth average quaity cars, the really good ones while not fetching quite what they did previously, are still perfomring well. I'd also suggest the fall in our values this is not limited to Porsche or classic cars, as new car sales are down also. I'd sugguest there are a couple of other factors in play. 1 - Brexit - until a meaningful trading deal is done most folk are holding on to their money to see what sort of a UK we're left with. I'd imagine Sterling will improve against other currencies esp Euro and US Dollar. I'd suggest car values will increase again in the next 12-18 months as the UK becomes more stable. 2 - collectors, if we remove the investors and concentrate on the collectors it won't be long unitl our generation passes and the next generation comes along. I'd suggest that those folk are more interested in cars from the 80's and 90's probably much the same as many folk on this forum are not that interested owning or driving in pre-war cars. So the demand for 60's 70's cars may wain, I think this this also the reason that "anything but the best" of our current batch of classic 911 are now falling in price as only the "best of the best" are doing OK, this becasue investors, rather than the average man, are buying these where they feel rarity and qaulity are worth the premium - this applies to classics 911 and modern (911R - GT2) A small side bar - the cost of restoration for an "average 911" also pushed prices dwon, hence why a typical 911 thats had a £100k restoration, now selling for £80k would seem to be a much safer bet that an average car need some work.
IMO the gap between examples of the best and worse particualr models will widen, with 80% of the cars in this middle ground , and with owners/investors wanting to move average cars yes then prices wil fall. There will of course come a point where folk just wont sell at a loss, so the market is not likely to crash. I'm in no rush to sell anything I own. If someone offers reasonble money for a car of mine to allow me to buy another 911 that would have previously been unaffordable then yes I can see how that would work, but until then, I'm staying where I am.
65 911 FIA race car
66 911 RHD restoration
67 911S LHD
74 911 Carrera 2.7 US Spec
79 Aistream Excella 28 MH
97 Bimota Vdue
14 KTM 690R Duke
83 RD350 YPVS
08 Ducati M900
00 Ducati 996SPS
944 T, 3.2 RSR, GT3 - SOLD
All very interesting, but Brexit, what collectors are doing and the state of the economy, are all completely missing the point in as far as the future for the market for classic cars is concerned.
The one overwhelming factor which will determine the future of our passion is climate change.
cheers, Mike.
previously..
1994 968 Club Sport Riviera Blue
1994 993 C2 Carrera Riviera Blue
1972 911S to Martini RSR Prototype Spec
1973 911E to RS Lightweight Specification
1981 924 Carrera GT ex Mexborough car
3.2 Carrera Sport x2
If you think Brexit will be sorted in 18m good luck.
I think Mike is correct the biggest affect on the value of these cars is new anti petrol laws
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“A REMINDER. I would be grateful if those members who have borrowed bits from me in emergencies (e.g starter motor, oil cooler, etc) would return them and/or contact me”. – Chris Turner RIP
Daft modern cars definitely seem on the rapid slide. A friend bought a 20k mile 2017 McLaren 540 this week for £70k, dealers had apparently been bidding the previous owner £65k. They were retailing at £85-90k a few months ago.
I think the issue is bigger even than that. A few classic cars will continue to be regarded as works of art (with values to match) but generally, old cars are rapidly becoming entirely uninteresting to the next generations and most will soon become valueless. The things we find interesting about them - mechanical ingenuity, design excellence, speed, heritage and so forth are as meaningless as Meccano to a generation brought up with the iPhone.
Add to that the challenge of climate change and the replacement of fossil fuels with electric power and we are only at the start of a shift in values that's only going one way. We should continue to enjoy owning old cars while we can but - for all but a very few - let's not pretend that they'll ever again be a remotely sensible financial investment.
I think you under estimate the interest from our younger generations in cars. Granted older cars (pre 1980) are perhaps of little interest but at our local cars and coffee meet each month I would say at least a third of the owners in attendance are under 30 years old. The biggest issue for them isn’t a lack of interest but affording to run a second hobby car.
As an aside out of the six staff in my workshop (including myself) four of them are in their late 20s very early 30s
yoda wrote:If you speak to teens, very few are interested in cars. My son is 14 and loves them but he is probably one of a handful (at an all boys school).
My son too is very interested in cars but that is probably my influence. He too goes to an all boys school and none of his friends are remotely interested in anything unusual / classic / custom. Any of his schoolmates who have passed their tests have newish cars. I have bought him an old VW Lupo and he's now searching for a cheap set of custom rims. He loves old Porsches and is always telling me what Magnus Walker and other car guys are up to on Instagram.
Sam wrote:Wasn’t that always the case though? How many adults on your street have a hobby car?
There are 3 other guys in my road with hobby cars - Mk2 Capri, an old Bentley and a drifter with a couple of Nissans.
I would say there are still a fair few kids who are interested in cars, a friend has a resto business, most of his staff are in their 20’s and 30’s, the big problem they have had over the past few years has been affording to buy the cars they would like as everything classic has been so expensive.
We also have a monthly car meet in our village, each meet sees around 300 cars show up, many of these are owned by younger enthusiasts.
There’s no doubt we are going through a huge change right now but I can see more and more people choosing the ev conversion route over time in order to keep their hobby on the road.
Burgundy 69 912
Audi A4 1.8T sport avant
VW T25 magnum multivan
