Jacking and Supporting a 911 for Welding Work

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Barry
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Jacking and Supporting a 911 for Welding Work

Post by Barry »

Someone e-mailed me with some queries regarding welding an up-and-running (non-stripped) 911 yesterday. Included in my reply was my guide on how I treat a built-up car if it's to have welding performed upon it, especially sills. I've probably mentioned this method before, but there's no harm posting it again, just in case it's of use, or at least, provide a discussion point.

This method negates any problems with un-even workshop floors, and whilst the car might not end up 'level' as far as a spirit level is concerned, it'll be much healthier than simply plonking it on four axle stands and hoping for the best. Usual internet stuff applies: if you're hard-of-thinking, and end up squashed under your 911 because you've used Lego instead of stands, or have a garage floor made of porridge, don't come running to me :lol: .

Anyway, hope this is of interest:

You will need: Two pin, or ratchet style axle stands, two threaded style stands (often used for mobile home support), one mechanical jack (threaded or scissor), plus a heavy duty hydraulic trolley jack.

1) Photograph and measure door gaps with car on level ground. Operate doors to remind yourself of shut-action.
2) Jack the car under the engine (using a suitable protecting pad) and support on pin-style stands under torsion tube end covers (to medium height).
3) Jack front of car at centre of tank support / front pan using a suitable protecting pad. Support under front A-arm mount with two threaded style stands.
4) Return to rear and jack to working height, raise pin style stands to suit.
5) At front of car, now jack to one side to allow centre of tank support / front pan to remain clear. Put standard axle stand here to allow for comfortable working height.
6) Release jack.
7) Place a threaded axle stand under each A-arm front support and raise until stand just touches each (touches but no pressure).
8 ) Raise each of the two outer threaded stands by one full turn, and remove centre axle stand.
9) Return to rear of car, and place a mechanical (not hydraulic) jack under engine (towards rear, you won't be putting much weight through it), and raise little by little until door gaps and shut-actions return to their pre-jacked state.

The car is now suspended in a safe manner, with no additonal distortions over and above it's on-wheels state. Please note, this method does not correct pre-existing errors in shell alignment, but does ensure no addtional errors are built into a car during works. Do not be tempted to use any hydraulic jacks as supports during works, as quite aside from safety issues, they will sink over typical timescales that these works tend to expand into.

The threaded style stands aren't usually as heavy duty as pinned or ratchet ones, but are easily heavy duty enough for the front of the car. A very-much second rate solution is to shim conventional stands at the front to get the front end to match the rear, but you don't get the same 'feel' for the levels then.

HTH :)
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Barry
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Re: Jacking and Supporting a 911 for Welding Work

Post by Barry »

BTW, often the threaded stands come in sets of four, and if you are doing very heavy welding, it's no bad thing to add extra stands where common sense suggests that stresses may start to occur.

I have got up to ten supports before: if they are lying around the workshop, they might as well be lying around under the car doing some work. They probably won't make much if any difference, but they definitely won't hurt.
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sladey
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Re: Jacking and Supporting a 911 for Welding Work

Post by sladey »

Thanks for this Barry - it's very useful. However I did get lost from number 5 onwards (actually number 3 as well) :-

3) Jack front of car at centre of tank support / front pan using a suitable protecting pad. Support under front A-arm mount with two threaded style stands.

- Is this forward of the tank or behind the tank?

5) At front of car, now jack to one side to allow centre of tank support / front pan to remain clear. Put standard axle stand here to allow for comfortable working height.

- Where am I jacking here? at the corner post just behind the front wheel?
"centre tank support/front pan to remain clear"
- Eh? So are we jacking up one side high enough to lift it off the centre jack you used under the tank support?
"Put standard axle stand here to allow for comfortable working height"
- Where? - all too many times I've jacked the car up to find I want to put the axle stands next to where the Jack was and there isn't room.

6) Release jack.
- I think I've got that one

7) Place a threaded axle stand under each A-arm front support and raise until stand just touches each (touches but no pressure).
- OK with that

8 ) Raise each of the two outer threaded stands by one full turn, and remove centre axle stand.
- Are these outer ones the ones in 5 above or the ones in 7? Also I wasn't aware we'd got a central one

I'm honestly not trying to be a smart-arse - I actually am this stupid. I may be coming to do sills at some stage in the not too distant future so I'd like to get a handle on your method

Cheers

Mark
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Bruce M
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Jacking and Supporting a 911 for Welding Work

Post by Bruce M »

So.... raise 1/2 way at the back and support at torsion bars. Raise the front and support at a-arms. Raise the back to full height. Raise the front to full height and support at a-arms.
Now safely at working height.
Jack at the front but off centre. Put a single stand at the centre. This allows the shell to rest on a tripod and straighten out. Raise the jacks at the a-arms to contact point then lift exactly the same amount on both sides to avoid twisting the shell (one turn of the threaded jack).

Then support enough weight at the rear to flex the centre of the shell into the correct position.

That right?
911hillclimber
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Re: Jacking and Supporting a 911 for Welding Work

Post by 911hillclimber »

Yes Bruce, dead right.
I think I might have been the reason Barry got the email.

There is a chap in Tech Help on DDK asking how to support his Targa shell though the shell is bare.
I gave my opinion based on 5 bare shell restorations 3 of which were convertibles, two were coupes (MGB GT and my 911)

To level, the tripod route is perfect (obviously think camera), but once level you need to stop any twisting which the tripod certainly will never resist.
Hence the need to level with three and support with 4 as wide spaced as possible, and more esp if the lump is still in the car.

I am just an armature car mechanic without any cellette etc, but the cars I've done have been ok using the 3 stands + more method.
finding out about the garage floor 'truth' is a trick bit.

I know someone who used a Screwfix laser level to good effect rebuilding a Lola F5000.
Last edited by 911hillclimber on Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Barry
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Re: Jacking and Supporting a 911 for Welding Work

Post by Barry »

Thanks Bruce: well deducted from my poorly written guide :oops: .

Ahh, post racing: likewise Graham, thank you.

Sorry if the detail was a bit muddled, but I think my helpful DDK chums have cleared up the mess I've left :lol: .
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911hillclimber
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Re: Jacking and Supporting a 911 for Welding Work

Post by 911hillclimber »

I really think these discussions are a big part of DDK and very positive.
Always something to learn new or re-consider old habits!

The one jacking socket on my 911 creeked a bit recently and I'm considering 'key-hole' surgery on the local area as the shell is sound if a bit 'MoT' welded in places; not acceptable today, but normal in 1988.
I did the shell 24 years ago, bloody hell....

Image
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sladey
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Jacking and Supporting a 911 for Welding Work

Post by sladey »

Brilliant stuff - thanks


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Dingbat
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Re: Jacking and Supporting a 911 for Welding Work

Post by Dingbat »

Hi
Can I make a further suggestion, once you have your 911 supported in Barry style, and I must get me some threaded axle stands, take your trolley jack and put it centrally under the motor and find a bit of timber, maybe a 2x4 or so, put the timber across the engine width ways across the heat exchangers and jack up until the wood has started to lift the motor against the mounts, find a couple of axle stands undo the rear mounts and place the axle stands under the piece of wood allowing and inch or so of space and leaving the front mounts etc alone, then gently lower the wood the short distance down onto the stands, with everthing else connected you dont want to lower it that far, please note the jack is on the motors centre line and the wood is wider than the motor allowing space to position the stands. Why do this, I think once you start chopping out sills the weight of the motor and box tends the lever the back down and the middle up so by taking most of the weight of the egine and box through the workshop floor this problem is somewhat reduced.
sladey
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Jacking and Supporting a 911 for Welding Work

Post by sladey »

Interesting idea - makes sense


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911hillclimber
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Re: Jacking and Supporting a 911 for Welding Work

Post by 911hillclimber »

The balance point on my 911 (with a 3.2 in the back and alum case box) is almost right on the torsion tube, the fulcrum of the see-saw if you will.
73T 911 Coupe, road/hillclimber 3.2L
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Barry
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Re: Jacking and Supporting a 911 for Welding Work

Post by Barry »

Dingbat wrote:Hi
Can I make a further suggestion, once you have your 911 supported in Barry style, and I must get me some threaded axle stands, take your trolley jack and put it centrally under the motor and find a bit of timber, maybe a 2x4 or so, put the timber across the engine width ways across the heat exchangers and jack up until the wood has started to lift the motor against the mounts, find a couple of axle stands undo the rear mounts and place the axle stands under the piece of wood allowing and inch or so of space and leaving the front mounts etc alone, then gently lower the wood the short distance down onto the stands, with everthing else connected you dont want to lower it that far, please note the jack is on the motors centre line and the wood is wider than the motor allowing space to position the stands. Why do this, I think once you start chopping out sills the weight of the motor and box tends the lever the back down and the middle up so by taking most of the weight of the egine and box through the workshop floor this problem is somewhat reduced.

Hence my point '9' :)
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sladey
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Re: Jacking and Supporting a 911 for Welding Work

Post by sladey »

Hi again Barry,

For the threaded stands do you mean an acro prop (dramatically cut down ) or something else?
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sladey
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Re: Jacking and Supporting a 911 for Welding Work

Post by sladey »

Ignore me - I've found them now at caravanaxlestands.co.uk
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Re: Jacking and Supporting a 911 for Welding Work

Post by Barry »

:)
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